Record of the conversation of Stalin with Lord W. Beaverbrook and A. Garriman - 1941
September 29, 1941
highly secret
Beaverbrook: I
will allow myself to submit for your consideration the invitation to speak at
the conference on Thursday to report on progress and to celebrate the role of
the united states of America. Such a performance would create an atmosphere of
triumph, strengthen the common front and make a strong impression on England,
the USA and even France. I am trying to get the best out of the meeting for the
benefit of all three countries.
Stalin: I
do not see the need for this. Plus, I’m very busy. I don't even have
time to sleep. I think that comrade Molotov's speech will be quite
sufficient.
On Beaverbrook’s
proposal to bring the conference delegates to the kremlin, comrade Stalin again
points to his busyness. Beaverbrook states that he will return to this issue.
Beaverbrook:
with America's help, we can deliver 500 tanks, of which no more than 50% are
light tanks and the rest are heavy.
Stalin: what is the weight of the light tanks and the caliber of the guns?
Beaverbrook: 7-8 and 13
tons, and caliber - from 37 to 40 mm.
Stalin:
we agree if small tanks are no less than 7 tons and guns are no less than 37 mm.
But is it possible to increase the number?
Beaverbrook:
now we are talking about procurement over the next 8 months. Then we can give
more. In our proposal we have reached the limit of possibilities. Of course, it
will be necessary to keep the Arkhangelsk port open.
Harriman:
where would you like the American tanks to be sent - to Arkhangelsk, Vladivostok
or via Iran? This issue, of course, can be resolved in the commission, if we
cannot make a decision now.
Stalin:
to Arkhangelsk, closer to the front.
Beaverbrook:
there are very few cranes there, to my knowledge.
Stalin: the
number of cranes can be increased.
Beaverbrook: let's
move on to aviation now. We will be sending out 200 fighters per month from the
UK for 8 months and more thereafter. If we do not agree to make any changes to
the types of fighters, we intend to send hurri-cannons, spitfires or other
types. We'll have to send them by sea to Arkhangelsk (it is impossible to send
them by air), of course, disassembled.
Stalin: can't
Lord Beaverbrook say what the weight of the hurricanes and spitfires is.
Beaverbrook:
I can't say now.
Stalin:
what motors?
Beaverbrook:
800 horsepower Merlin, Rolls Royce motors. These fighters saved the UK.
Stalin:
as far as I know from the literature, the power should be 1000 horsepower.
Beaverbrook:
quite possibly. Tomorrow I can tell you more precisely.
Stalin:
will the oil (other necessary items) be supplied with weapons?
Beaverbrook:
yes, guns and ammunition.
Stalin:
it is advisable to have ammunition for each aircraft for 20 sorties.
"tomahawks" had ammunition only for 4-5 sorties, which our pilots
consider very insufficient.
Beaverbrook:
we sent ammunition for the tomahawks from England for 1,100,000 rounds,
3,150,000 were sent from America. On October 10, 500,000 will arrive, of which
200,000 are armor-piercing and 100,000 are tracer. I think that this will be
enough for now, and if not, we will send it. We are not interested in keeping
planes inactive.
Stalin: our
planes take with them 600 rounds for small-caliber machine guns, 300 for
large-caliber machine guns and 150 for 20-mm cannons. These numbers must be
multiplied by 20. The plane lives with us for a month and five days, which is
equivalent to 20 sorties. If you do not have the specified amount of
ammunition, the aircraft may remain inactive for some time.
Beaverbrook:
this calculation is correct if on each departure the plane will use up all the
taken supplies each time. In any case, we are interested in the maximum benefit
from the aircraft, and we will take care of the sufficient supply of ammunition
to the fighters.
Harriman:
I am surprised by the numbers given.
Stalin:
our machine gun fires 2400 rounds per minute, the large-caliber one -
1100-1200, the 20-mm cannon - 800, and the 23-mm - 580. Each plane takes 500-600.
This is 15 sec.
Beaverbrook:
that's right. I will share with you the results of the British experience in
this regard.
Stalin: we
don't take tracer bullets. Experience has shown them to be useless. We need
incendiary bullets.
Beaverbrook:
incendiary can also be sent. Do you need armor-piercing?
Stalin:
yes, we do. Is it not possible to receive planes of the same type: either the hurricanes
or the spitfires, so that it would be easier for our pilots to master?
Beaverbrook:
I understood you yesterday in the sense that you want to have spitfires as well,
and I telegraphed an order today, which I can of course cancel?
Stalin:
I said yesterday that we would prefer to have only spitfires. If it is not
possible, then we are ready to take only "hurricanes".
They say that there are
three-ton machine-gun tankettes. Could you supply us with them?
Beaverbrook:
we'll get to that point a little more.
I persuaded Harriman to
send 1,800 aircraft from the united states within 9 months, of which about 100
will be sent in October, 150 in November, 200 in December, 200 in January, and
the remainder over the next 5 months. Agreement between Great Britain and the
united states. Half of each monthly dispatch will be bombers. Fighters will be
of the tomahawk type in small numbers, and the rest of the Katigavk type. This
is an improved tomahawk type, and pilots familiar with this type will not have
to re-master the Katigavk. According to your wishes, the radius will be from
600 to 700 kilometers, and the bombs will be one ton on average, some will be
larger, others smaller.
Stalin:
twin-engine?
Beaverbrook:
all twin-engine. Some of this number will be sent from England.
Stalin:
yesterday we expressed a desire to receive more bombers than fighters, namely,
in a proportion of 75-25%.
Beaverbrook (throwing
up his hands): it's absolutely impossible.
Stalin: we
have a special type of Sturmovik bomber. It has armor of 5-7 mm, and in some places
even 13 mm. He hits tank columns and manpower. Armed with cannons and bombs.
The motor is not high-altitude, it flies at an altitude of 50-150 meters. Foggy
weather doesn't matter to him if the fogs are not very low. It has a great
effect in combat. It has 23 mm guns, but soon we will put 37 mm guns. The speed
at the ground is 380-400 kilometers. Russian motor, m-38. Single engine. The
team consists of one person. Power 1250 horsepower. The Germans really don't
like him. Your military saw him.
Beaverbrook:
it would be interesting to see it.
We can give other
things as well: field guns, heavy Bren-class aircraft. I would like to discuss
each subject one by one and come to definite solutions here. We intend to come
again in 8-9 months with a supply proposal on a larger scale. After we come to
certain decisions here, the rest of the items can be transferred to the supply
committees in London and Washington. If this plan is approved, then I will
start listing further types of supplies.
Do you need 25-pound
cannons?
Stalin:
we can do without them. Can't you get anti-aircraft guns?
Beaverbrook:
we don't have them.
Harriman: unfortunately,
we are very lagging behind in the production of anti-aircraft guns, we have
90mm zeits, which we are just starting to produce. We value them very much, but
I am authorized to offer 152 guns from them within 9 months, and u1-mm - 756
within 6 months. These are the only two types that we produce, about 150 per
month.
Beaverbrook:
anti-aircraft guns don't shoot down planes. That is why we prefer fighters.
Stalin: during
massive air raids, anti-aircraft guns frighten, do not allow hitting the target
and make them throw bombs in disorder.
Beaverbrook:
from the anti-tank guns, we could get some 2-pounders with armor-piercing rounds.
We now only make armor-piercing guns. Within the next 9 months we will be able
to deliver 2750. They penetrate 50 mm armor. They are all on trailers.
We can provide machine
guns with a caliber of over 6.72 mm used in tomahawks. The magazine contains 97
and 37 rounds.
We can offer three-inch
mortars used in the infantry. They shoot 1,500 yards.
Stalin:
no, they will not be needed. We are replacing them with mortars.
Beaverbrook:
it has anti-tank mines that we can give you 60 thousand a month.
Stalin: yes,
we do.
Beaverbrook: hand
grenades?
Stalin: we
have.
Beaverbrook: we can
give you some anti-tank rifles, and later we can give more. I can tell you the
caliber tomorrow.
Stalin: yes,
good.
Beaverbrook: do you
need wedges for a team of 2-3 people?
Stalin:
yes, we do.
Beaverbrook: there are Thomson-type
stenautomatic rifles, 8-9 rounds in the magazine.
Stalin:
no, they are not needed. We have a 10-round magazine.
Beaverbrook: you
ordered them, and we've already sent 20 thousand.
Stalin:
no, we don't need it.
Harriman: we have small
four-wheeled vehicles built specifically for the army, especially for
communications, like the jeep. We have 5 thousand of them.
Stalin:
okay, let's take it.
Beaverbrook: I’ll ask
if we can give them a lot.
Stalin:
what about barbed wire?
Harriman: you can.
Stalin: how much?
Harriman: I’ll have to ask.
The conversation ended
there, and the continuation is scheduled for 6:00. The evening of the next day.
Wua rf. F. 048. On. 48.
P. 431. D. 10. L. 19-25.
Publ .: Soviet-English
relations ... - t. 1. - s. 132-136.
Recording of the
conversation of the chairman of the council of people's commissars of the USSR J.
V. Stalin with the heads of delegations of the Great Britain Lord W. Beaverbrook
September 30, 1941
highly secret
Harriman delivers a
note in English concluding the responses of the British and American
delegations to the individual items on our list of applications, after reading
this note.
Stalin:
we could take 8-10 thousand 3-ton trucks a month. If it is impossible, then
they would agree to take part 17, and 2-t.
Harriman: I can't talk
about the numbers right now. But we will do our best to satisfy you as much as possible.
Stalin:
4 thousand m(eter) of barbed wire a month is not enough for us. We would like
to receive 10-15 thousand tons at once. Can't you get now a 2-month supply of 8
thousand m in one month?
Harriman: I can't
promise now.
Beaverbrook: in addition
to toluene, we will send you 10,000 m, but I don't know what month. It is an
explosive substance containing toluene.
Harriman hands over a
list of goods that it is desirable to receive from the USSR.
Beaverbrook: I would
suggest ending the conference so that we can return to the UK and the us and
there to discuss your maritime application with our governments. I want the UK
to go far, very far, to have a sense of real cooperation.
Stalin:
how many tankettes can you give?
Beaverbrook: 200 a
month now and more then. Everything that we produce and that is not included in
your applications, we will give you. You only need to tell us what you want. I am
making this proposal on behalf of my government. Do you need quarter-ton bombs?
Stalin:
we would prefer half-ton bombs.
Beaverbrook: we can
offer you oxygen cylinders for 75 and 750 liters, as well as various rockets,
for example, for lighting water, smoke, etc.
Stalin:
we need to study all this.
Beaverbrook: you can
wire me this.
Harriman: if you don’t
mind, I would like to leave here a permanent representative at the embassy who
would deal specifically with the supply issues and would help our ambassador in
this.
Stalin:
it would be very good (...]
If we have finished
with this question, then I would like to say a few words about after Steinhardt.
It seems to us that he is very influenced by the local foreign diplomatic
missions. At the very beginning of the war, he frightened us with the fact that
the Germans were supposedly plotting to send parachute troops to kidnap me and
comrade Molotov. At that time, he already suggested that we evacuate the
government from Moscow, as well as the embassy. He has been keeping part of his
embassy in Kazan for a long time.
Harriman: I didn't know
that. It seemed to me that Steinhardt was eager to help.
Stalin: are
you satisfied with our ambassador Umansky?
Harriman: he talks too
much. He addresses many people on the same matter, and as a result no one knows
who is responsible for the execution. It would be better if he spoke with one
person, who is responsible in each case.
There is a brief exchange
of views on Maisky and Cripps, with lord Beaverbrook speaking highly of Maisky.
Harriman: I want to
return to the issue I raised yesterday regarding the Siberian airfields. Who could
our general Chaney turn to?
Stalin:
to general Golikov.
How is Hess doing?
Beaverbrook: I visited
him on September 8th.
Stalin:
is he so hospitable?
Beaverbrook: it's in a
wired house with bars on the windows. He handed over to Mia a memorandum of 40-50
pages, written with his own hand, where the thesis against Russia is being
developed. He complained that he, who had come to save England, was being held
behind bars and not even allowed to correspond with his family. He especially
insists that he be allowed to communicate with Hitler. In my personal opinion,
which Churchill does not share, Hess came with someone's knowledge; in England
he hoped to decline, to cause through his supporters a movement against the British
government and then fly back. But, obviously, he was not met at the agreed
place or did not give the necessary signals, the fuel ran out, and Hess had to
go down by parachute. Churchill thinks Hess is insane.
We would like to do
something for the Turks, they treat us with sympathy.
Stalin: it
would be good so that Turkey does not go to Germany. But she doesn't
behave like an ally of England.
Beaverbrook: they
didn't do anything to hurt us, no trouble. They were hurt by our actions in Iraq
and Iran. Helping them boils down to delivering tools you don't need. Yesterday
I spoke about a thousand 87 lei of field guns, which would mean a lot for the Turks.
Stalin: to
help, you need to have guarantees that help will not be lost. Is lord Beaverbrook
sure of that? There is no union between Turkey and England, but there is
neutrality.
Beaverbrook: we would
like to resurrect the union.
Stalin:
this should have been a condition for help.
Beaverbrook: we can't
complain about them. We ourselves did not fulfill some obligations.
Stalin: Turkey
is afraid of Bulgaria and its alliance with Germany.
Does the blockade
extend to Finland?
Beaverbrook: I think
we're ready to distribute, but I’m asking you not to rely on that answer. I could
give a more accurate answer to this from England.
Stalin: Finland
is behaving very impudently towards Britain’s ally - the USSR. At the beginning
of the war, she said that she was striving to establish the old borders, and
now she behaves like a vassal of Germany.
Beaverbrook: so, you
want a blockade of Finland?
Stalin:
this would be a continuation of the blockade of Germany. Finland has long
crossed its borders.
I once asked the
president of the united states of America if he could threaten Finland to break
off relations. Do you know, Herr Harriman, what followed?
Harriman: I can't say,
but personally I think it would be politically difficult for the president.
Stalin:
I think that our agreement with Britain on cooperation against Germany and on
not concluding a separate peace should be turned into an alliance treaty that
would cover not only the military, and about post-war period, our government is
wholly behind this.
Beaverbrook: I personally
would support such a proposal and would like the issue to be raised. We have a
military cabinet and a defense committee, which is responsible for the issue
raised. Members of the defense committee are Churchill, Attlee, Eden, and Beaverbrook.
They make certain decisions without asking the rest of the government.
Stalin:
is it possible to end the conference by signing the agreement on cooperation of
the three powers?
Beaverbrook: I think it
would be difficult for America.
Harriman: lord Beaverbrook
speaks from personal experience. You should not push the president with
agreements.
Stalin:
I do not press, but only ask.
Harriman: you have to
understand where the president is leading his country.
Stalin: but
all the same, there is a lot of ambiguity in America's position: on the
one hand, it supports the belligerent England, and on the other hand, it
maintains diplomatic relations with Germany.
Beaverbrook: America is
doing everything it can to harm Germany. The country is very friendly towards Great
Britain, but the army and navy are not so willing to part with their own
supplies. Roosevelt, Hopkins and Harriman, however, are pushing through. I would
like you to be as much a friend of these people as we are.
Harriman: for clarity,
I will add that our fleet wants war with Germany and by all definitions of the
concept of war, it is already at war, having received the order to fire on German
ships. Our army is too small, but difficulties are being overcome.
Beaverbrook: from July
1, 1942, we will be delivering 375 tanks a month and 500 tanks a month from January
1, 1943. I see no reason why the us could not deliver the same quantities to
you. I can promise on behalf of my government to raise the delivery of
airplanes to 500 per month from July 1, and to 400 from January 1, 1943. If America
gives the same quantities, then you will receive 800 per month, I repeat once
again, if we produce anything in the UK that is not on your list, we are always
ready to provide you with a certain percentage of products.
Stalin:
we would very much like to receive trucks from America.
Do you think a press
communique is necessary?
Beaverbrook and Harriman:
yes.
Harriman: we are sending
a military mission to China; do you have anything to say about this?
Stalin:
it would be nice, but China has stopped fighting.
Harriman: are you
continuing to supply china?
Stalin:
no, due to our own needs we stopped supplying, but 4 months ago we sent artillery
and aircraft there.
Beaverbrook: the Americans
recently sent 67 bombers to china that were destined for England.
Harriman: can you say
something about japan?
Stalin: when
the neutrality treaty was signed, the question of aid to china was not raised
at all. There is no way to tear japan away from Germany. Does America seem to
be working on it? It would be nice.
Harriman: all I can say
is that the UK and America have dealt with this issue a lot. We now represent a
united front to make japan understand the fallacy of its relationship with the
axis powers. This policy, which we have been developing since the president's
meeting with Churchill, is already yielding good results.
Stalin:
I have the impression that Japan is not Italy and does not want to go into
slavery to Germany. Therefore, there are grounds for separating it from Germany.
A decision is made to
end the conference from tomorrow and to prepare a press communique in the
meantime.
Wua rf. F. 048. On. 48.
P. 431. D. 10. L. 26-31.
Publ .: Soviet-English
relations ... - t. 1. - p. 136-140.
Selected Secret Documents from Soviet Foreign Policy Documents Archives - 1919 to 1941
Svitlana M, Erdogan A
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