Stalin - Conversation with Ambassador of Argentina Leopoldo Bravo February 7, 1953

Source: Stalin I.V. Works. - T. 18. - Tver: Informational Soyuz Publishing Center, 2006, pp. 591–597.

Stalin asks how long the ambassador was not in the USSR and whether Moscow has changed during this time.

Bravo replies that he was absent from the USSR for four years and that very big changes are noticeable in Moscow. A grandiose construction is underway.

Bravo goes on to say that Argentine President Peron instructed him to convey his heartfelt greetings to Generalissimo Stalin and say that Argentina wishes to strengthen ties with the Soviet Union and, in particular, develop trade relations.

Stalin says that there will be no objection on our part to this.

Bravo declares that it is a great honor and great pleasure for him to visit the Generalissimo and that this visit will remain in his memory for the rest of his life.

Stalin notes that the reception of ambassadors is his duty. Asks Bravo what could be an object of trade between Argentina and the USSR, what Argentina would like to buy from the Soviet Union and what it could sell to the Soviet Union.

Bravo replies that the Argentinean Foreign Ministry handed over to the USSR Ambassador Rezanov a memorandum containing a list of goods that Argentina would like to purchase from the Soviet Union, as well as a list of goods that Argentina could supply to the Soviet Union. First of all, Argentina would like to purchase drilling equipment for the oil industry, oil and agricultural machinery from the USSR. For its part, Argentina could offer leather, wool, vegetable oil and other goods.

Stalin says that the Soviet government will consider this proposal and that the USSR is interested in trade with Argentina.

Bravo reports that from an early age he was interested in the Soviet Union, read books about the USSR and that, thus, he is personally interested in good relations with the USSR. Bravo expresses his admiration for the enormous construction being carried out in the Soviet Union, and the remarkable successes achieved by the USSR in the field of industrialization.

Stalin says that it is impossible to force the people to build by force, but the Soviet people themselves want to build, this facilitates construction.

Bravo notes that Argentine President Peron also launched a movement for the country's independence.

Stalin asks: is not Argentina currently an independent country?

Bravo replies that Argentina is an independent country, but that there used to be many foreign imperialist monopolies in the country that dominated important sectors of the Argentine economy. President Peron has launched a campaign to nationalize foreign enterprises and has already nationalized some of them, in particular railways, ports, electrical industries, urban transport, and slaughterhouses. Declares that there is no freedom without economic independence.

Stalin agrees with this. He says that Americans are well aware that those who own the country's economy also own its independence, and that it will be good for Argentina if its economic independence is established, at least gradually. It will be good for Argentina.

Bravo says that is exactly what Peron and his supporters are doing now: they are seeking economic independence in order to achieve political independence. Declares that Argentina would like to strengthen cultural ties with the USSR, as well as ties in sports matters.

Stalin welcomes this proposal. Notices that the Spaniards used to be good athletes. Asks whether sports are highly developed in Argentina.

Bravo replies that football is very developed in Argentina. Argentina is interested in the arrival of the Argentine football team in the USSR and the Soviet one in Argentina.

Stalin says that this subject can be discussed. Asks about the state language of Argentina. Is it Spanish ?

Bravo confirms that the official language in Argentina is Spanish.

Stalin says that, as far as he remembers, Bramuglia was Argentina's foreign minister a few years ago, and notes  at the same time, there are two villages in the Caucasus, which are called Bramuglia.

Bravo confirms that Bramuglia was indeed Argentina's foreign minister. He says that he is currently a university professor.

Stalin says that during the Spanish war, Pasqua was the Spanish ambassador to Moscow. Noticing that this surname is also often found in the Caucasus, speaks of some linguistic similarity of the peoples inhabiting the Caucasus and Spain.

Bravo agrees with this and says that this summer he intends to visit the Caucasus, as it seems to him that the customs of the peoples of the Caucasus are close to the customs of the people of his country.

Stalin notes that in ancient times, in the Caucasus Mountains, many peoples hid from the persecution of enemies. Subsequently, the remains of these peoples were deposited as geological layers. Until now, the remnants of the Basques, Sarmatians, Avars, as well as the remnants of peoples that have disappeared, have survived in the Caucasus. Therefore, from the point of view of ethnography, the Caucasus is of great interest. A scientist who would begin to study the ethnographic composition of the Caucasus would find a lot of interesting things. In Dagestan, for example, in 3-4 groups located close to one another, there are peoples who speak different languages ​​and do not understand each other.

Asks the ambassador how matters stand with the economic independence of Mexico.

Bravo replies that, in his opinion, Mexico cannot develop freely due to its strong dependence on the United States.

Stalin says this is correct.

Bravo says that a movement for economic independence is currently developing in all Latin American countries. The people of Argentina are very sympathetic to the Soviet Union, as they see it as the vanguard in the struggle for the independence of peoples. From Argentina, the Congress of Peoples in Defense of Peace was attended by a delegation of 40 people - representatives of various political parties, religious beliefs, professions; there were also workers. 15 of this delegation visited the Soviet Union. These delegates visited the ambassador and told him about the tremendous impression made on them by their stay in the Soviet Union and excursions to Moscow enterprises, in particular to the Stalin Plant, where they saw the assembly of cars.

Stalin says the strength of the Anglo-Americans lies in the fact that while Spain, for example, cared primarily about Catholicism, they strove to develop their industry. Notes that in order to become independent, you need to have your own industry.

Bravo fully agrees with this. He says that this is why they are fighting in Argentina for economic independence, and they have some success in this matter.

Stalin says that without this condition, independence cannot be achieved.

Bravo reports that this year, Argentine factories have provided the country's agriculture with tractors and trucks of their own production for the first time.

Stalin asks if there is oil in Argentina.

Bravo replies that there is oil, but there is not enough equipment for drilling oil wells.

Stalin asks if there are specialists for the oil industry.

Bravo replies that there are such specialists. He also notes that the oil industry in Argentina is nationalized and belongs to the state.

Stalin says that this is good, very good.

Bravo , citing that his subsequent announcement will be unofficial, says that a few years ago England ate Argentine meat for free, since slaughterhouses, railways and the fleet belonged to England, and that Argentina even had to pay extra for meat exported to England.

Stalin asks: will this continue in the future?

Bravo replies that this will not happen further, since railways, slaughterhouses and ports are currently owned by the state, but points out that Argentina is experiencing a shortage of wagons and railway equipment.

Stalin says that we will have both wagons and cars for Argentina.

Bravo thanks.

Stalin asks to convey to the President of Argentina Peron gratitude for his greetings and wishes of success in Argentina's struggle for independence.

Bravo thanks him warmly. He says that he will not hesitate to inform Peron about this. 

Stalin says that in the old days, under tsarism, all, for example, the industry of Leningrad and the entire Baltic fleet were kept on English coal, but now this is not so, since we drove out the British. That is why they scold us.

Bravo agrees with this.

Stalin says that the Anglo-Saxons love to sit on other people's backs. It is necessary to end this.

Bravo says that, fortunately, a movement for national independence is developing in all countries and that soon England will have to sit only in her home.

Stalin,  Let him sit in his house, and we do not intend to invade her house.

Bravo believes that at the present time, due to the growth of the national liberation movement throughout the world, England does not dare to invade foreign countries.

Stalin, No, there are areas where England invades: Malaya, Africa and other places. Indicates that British interests are also strong in Belgium and Holland. Notes that there are still places in the world that England could plunder, but that they are becoming less and less every day.

Bravo expresses the hope that soon there will be no such places at all.

Stalin says that every nation, even the smallest, wants to live its own life.

Bravo fully agrees with this. He says that every nation has such a desire.

Stalin says that the Latin American countries need to unite. Notices that maybe Latin American countries should have formed something like the United States of South America?

Bravo says that fortunately in Latin American countries there is a unification of the movement against foreign imperialism and that Argentina is setting an example in winning economic independence.

Stalin says that it is necessary to create some kind of alliance of Latin American countries for positive goals, for the purposes of economic construction, and not just for organizing resistance. Asks if Latin American countries would like to form such an alliance?

Bravo says that it is, within Latin American countries  there is such a desire, but as soon as a country begins to fight for economic independence, the United States launches a hostile campaign in the press against this country, seeking to accuse it of adherence to communism and dependence on the Soviet Union.

Stalin says that this only betrays the poverty of the mind of the leaders of the United States, who have a lot of money but little in their heads. He notes at the same time that American presidents, as a rule, do not like to think, but prefer to use the help of "brain trusts", that such trusts, in particular, were with Roosevelt and Truman, who apparently believed that if they had money, brain was not necessary.

Asks if the Ambassador has any other points for discussion.

Bravo says he has no other questions. He would like to declare that he feels great pride and gratitude that he was allowed to show his respect to Generalissimo Stalin, and that he will keep the memory of this visit forever.

Stalin replies that, if necessary, he is ready to receive the ambassador again, since this is his duty.

Bravo says that he is very glad to see Generalissimo Stalin in good health, cheerful and cheerful.

Stalin asks: what would cause such joy, what benefit did it bring to Argentina?

Bravo says that Stalin is a person who people all over the world think about, and not only communists, a person who interests everyone, about whom everyone asks, whose books are read and whose statements are guided by.

Stalin notes that the ambassador is obviously exaggerating.

Bravo says that all his words are from the heart.

Stalin says he has no doubts about that, but that people in other countries exaggerate his role. One will praise, the other will pick up, everyone begins to praise.

Bravo says that, be that as it may, he firmly knows that no one in the world is spoken so much as about Stalin.

Stalin in a joking tone remarks that some praise him, others scold him. For example, Churchill.

Bravo thanks again for the honor given to him and says that he is filled with joy in connection with the opportunity presented to him to see and speak with the Generalissimo. 

The conversation, which lasted 40 minutes, ended there. The meeting was attended by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR A.Ya. Vyshinsky.

The conversation was recorded by Comrade Vyshinsky and Comrade Kolosovsky.

Independent newspaper. 2003.4 March.

RGASPI F. 558. Op. 11.D. 250. L. 3–11.