October 17, 2020

Transcript of the meeting of the Military Council under the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR June 1-4, 1937

 A source: Military Council under the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR. June 1-4, 1937: Documents and materials. - M .: Russian political encyclopedia (ROSSPEN), 2008, pp. 202-250

Archive: RGASPI. F. 17. Op. 165.D. 60.L. 1-139.

Meeting of the Military Council with the participation of invited comrades commanders and political workers (morning meeting) from 3. VI . 1937 [1]

Voroshilov ( presiding). I declare the meeting open. Comrade Alksnis has the floor.

Alksnis .Comrades, the size of the counterrevolutionary military-political conspiracy in the People's Commissariat of Defense and in the Red Army, in my opinion, surpassed the size of other people's commissariats, at least in the number of responsible people participating in this conspiracy. Comrade Stalin, in his speech, with full completeness and clarity, said about the reasons and prerequisites for how and why it could happen that this conspiracy was not opened in the bud, that this conspiracy was not opened and exposed by the political workers and Bolshevik commanders of our Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army ... Before Comrade Stalin's speech from this rostrum, some comrades tried to explain the long existence of this counter-revolutionary group by the fact that they cleverly disguised themselves, and, therefore, there were not enough signals to reveal and expose this group.

I think this is not the case. Speaking frankly, there were signals, and there were quite a few signals. However, we did not attach sufficient importance to these signs, phenomena, signals due to the loss of the sharpness of our political instinct and did not try to reveal the essence of the matter.

Voices . Right.

Alksnis . I will focus on specific examples. I do not know, for example, I directly declare to me, I knew that there was Tukhachevsky's group; knew that there was such an army group of Tukhachevsky; saw it, felt it. I saw that if this group carries out any organizational measures, if Tukhachevsky said something, then the same measures are immediately put forward from Belarus and Ukraine. And sometimes try to resist - nothing will come of it, you will get it in the neck. I don’t know about the others, but I also had clashes. But what I did not assume is that this is a political group, that this group has certain political goals. Why didn't I?

Budyonny . Not a political, but a spy group.

Alksnis . Yes, it’s spy. Why didn't I? There was no class instinct. I lost the sharpness of my political instinct, could not figure it out. Was it not known that they were going to their apartments, drinking? All this was known. I, in any case, knew about it. I didn't belong to this. I directly declare that Tukhachevsky tried several times to invite me to his apartment. I did not go. And recently, when there was a parade on Red Square, Tukhachevsky taps me on the shoulder and says: “It's cold here. Let's go to the apartment and have a snack? " I did not want. I said: “I have no time, the planes are landing here. I can not". Not because I suspected something, but did not want to. I never belonged to this group, I think you all know that.

Two cases. I must say frankly that I could not figure out why deputies from this group were always nominated to me with such persistence. Comrade People's Commissar must confirm that Turovsky was offered to me as deputy three times. I didn't want to, because I knew that it was from Kushakov's company. And I knew Kushakov very well and threw him out of the Air Fleet with great trouble. Moreover, I could not understand for a long time why Feldman with such persistence, with such persistence is seeking the restoration of Kushakov in the Air Force. He was dismissed from the Air Force, then transferred to the special faculty of the Academy. Frunze. Graduated from it. Fedko was offered, but failed, I did not take him. They offered to take him as a brigade commander. I didn't take it. He died without getting into the Air Force. I will not say that I knew about this group, I knew Kushakov well. I looked closely at Turovsky; Primakov three times, before and after Tkachev's appointment, I was offered. Tukhachevsky specifically talked to me on this issue: “Why don't you take him? This is one of the most talented people, one of the best commanders, and you don't take him. I do not understand, what do you want?" I didn't take it. But I did not attach any importance to this, to delve into why people are offering these people to the Air Force.

I'm not even saying that there have been attacks against me personally more than once, especially from Uborevich, more than one campaign was waged to put some pig on and make trouble. But now I lost my political instinct so much that there was no way to find fault with such facts, to understand them and bring the matter to the end. Here I do not want to say that the Air Fleet is fenced off in this respect. Comrade Yezhov is now absent here. So far, little has been revealed in the Air Force.

Blucher . This is because you don't dig much.

Alksnis . Quite right.

Blucher . Calm still continues.

Alksnis . No, there is no comfort. I just declare that it cannot be that they did not try to infiltrate the Air Fleet. It can't be. I think that both in the central office and in the districts there are people in the Air Fleet who have not yet been opened and who will need to be opened and taken.

Voice . Don't wait for Yezhov to take it.

Alksnis . I do not wait, I am engaged in this business, there is such a corps commander [2] in the Far East - Kokhansky; not because I negotiated with Bulin about him, but because he is one of those who were imposed on me and whom I tried in every possible way to wipe out.

Voice . We need to take one more brigade commander.

Alksnis . I have no doubt that both in Ukraine and in Belarus there are people who need to be taken. I do not want to give the names here, but there is a list of people who are very close people to Uborevich.

Voices . Right.

Alksnis . Which, if you need not to knock out [3] , then, in any case, very carefully check three times, four times.

Voice . And at Yakir's.

Alksnis . And Yakir has such people, I know them, because every time they tried to offer them to me, and if they failed to get the candidacy through the Air Force, then it passed, bypassing me, through Feldman.

Voice . Certainly.

Alksnis .Were there signals in this area and in other areas, not only in personnel? There were. In general, the People's Commissar knows about the links. I must report, when this question arose, we raised the question of having catcher links on the planes so that when you shoot, the links are not thrown into the wind. For this, it was proposed to install link catchers. So they appointed a special commission, accused us of sabotage, made such a fuss, defamed. For example, Besenau, a non-partisan engineer who fought especially zealously for the installation of these ring traps, was defamed for this. There is a special order on this issue, Comrade People's Commissar, an order signed by Tukhachevsky, in which we were defeated, literally accused of sabotage. It was. But when they began to put into service in the Artillery Directorate, it turned out that 5 thousand units were ordered for machine guns. So what happened? But it turned out that there are pilots, there are planes, there are cartridges, there are fighters, but there are no flights and you cannot shoot. I declare frankly that then I did not have political acuteness, I did not have the political instinct to understand the whole matter and find the reason for such actions. Then we thought like this: people of aviation do not know, do not understand and, obviously, miscalculated.

I must report, Comrade People's Commissar, that this issue has not yet been resolved to this day, and our fighter aviation is not provided with units. We have pilots, planes, cartridges, but no units. You cannot shoot without links. And by the way, this question can be solved on fighter planes. It was possible to decide even then, but the people who raised this question were summoned and defamed. I now give the name of a non-partisan teacher who is now in Leningrad, who has been defamed ... (Call of the chairman.)

Kurchevsky's cannon. Someone, but they washed my head so many times for this Kurchevsky gun. At Tukhachevsky's insistence, they summoned me to the [RKKA] Headquarters and washed my head: Alksnis does not accept Kurchevsky's gun because he does not understand anything and does not want to arm aviation. They were forcibly forced to take, but it was quite clear: they had to create an entire squadron, spend two years of testing in order to prove that this Kurchevsky gun was not suitable. Only then was it possible to abandon this Kurchevsky gun. Hahanyan knows what the story was.

Budyonny . And they wanted to introduce this Kurchevsky gun into the fleet.

Alksnis . Further - the aircraft R-Zet [4] and 36C. The R-Zet aircraft invented by Belenkovich were imposed. And every time I raised the question that Belenkovich was decomposing the plant, complaints poured about me, even Tukhachevsky's memorandums were written that Alksnis wanted to eat Belenkovich [a]. And now we don't know what to do with them.

I believe that most of all they did disgrace in the field of material weapons. They did a lot of all sorts of things, but most of all they did in the field of combat training. What did it turn into? Under the guise of fighting bureaucracy, they destroyed all reports and you, Comrade Sedyakin, helped them very much in this. Last year, when I raised the question that [what if] there is a task, [then] let's receive reports on its implementation and we will check. Why is there such a system in industry, why can't we have it? All this was eliminated under the guise of a struggle against bureaucracy. Eliminated any reports on combat training so that it was impossible to control. They succeeded, they did it. The reason is now clear. I analyzed now, before I did not see it either, now I understand all their tactics.

How did they wind down the Air Force? Do you remember, Comrade People's Commissar? At your dacha, after all, they literally beat me ... All unanimously said that the Air Force Directorate interferes with studying, interferes with work, so the Air Force chiefs were eliminated, the chiefs of directorates who were given unknown functions were imprisoned. Uborevich came home and gave the order that no Air Force representative could get into aviation without his knowledge. He subordinated the commanders of the brigades directly to himself, the chiefs of the air forces were deprived of the opportunity to do their real work.

Voice from the place . The bosses were depersonalized.

Alksnis . Quite right, they depersonalized the bosses. Let someone object to this. Tuzhansky is sitting here, he can confirm.

On the issue of letnabs, I must say the following. Feldman each time insisted not to give Alksnis commanders to the Air Fleet, and therefore now we have a very difficult situation.

Nobody here spoke about a very weak area - about warehouses. There, the enemies planted a lot of people hostile to us, therefore, first of all, the check must start from the warehouses in order to remove from there all dubious, all suspicious people. It is there that one spy, one pest can do so much that you and I, tens of thousands of people have done and accumulated over the years.

Voice from the place . But how was Kobryan assigned to the warehouse?

Alksnis . This is also our political blindness. After all, I had 3 people in my Office: Khrustalev, recruited by Naumov, Yanel and Azarov. Of course, a political mistake on my part also manifested itself here, because we all lost the sharpness of our political instinct, and these outrages could be happening with impunity. Since the time is up, I end there.

Voroshilov . Comrade Sedyakin has the floor.

Sedyakin . I, comrades, must say in all frankness that, of course, I feel very bitter; I am ashamed to look you all in the eyes after what Comrade Stalin said here. I'm not one of those people who justify themselves in order to justify themselves. But I want to report here to the Military Council, the People's Commissar and the government the circumstances that could give you the opportunity to judge that in this case, when writing the preface to Kutyakov's book, I was guided by a malicious intent, that I was a scoundrel, or that it was something else. ...

Voroshilov . It was the most real double-dealing on your part. You were in very good relations with me, you often visited me on all kinds of questions, conferred with me, and on such a serious matter, directly concerning Budyonny personally, me, Yegorov, Stalin, you began to write a preface without saying a word about it.

Sedyakin . I will report now who knew about this and who did not. How did this story begin? It began in February 1934, when a conversation began for the first time that we were not dealing with the history of the Civil War or that we were doing little. At that very moment, on behalf of the Chief of the General Staff, I was working on this issue. Kutyakov brought me a voluminous, thick book - a manuscript, and he brought it and said: “So I wrote this book for several years, sent it to Comrade Yegorov and asked him to be the editor of this book. I sent this book to Comrade Stalin, and now, "he says," I ask you, because you know me. " (And I really know him since the fall of 1918, when we were together on the Eastern Front, and after that I followed him and was on friendly terms with him.)

Voice . He praises you well now.

Sedyakin . “You,” he says, “read and give the preface to this book, which describes how the 25th division behaved on the Western Front” [5] . Then, in the spring of 1934, I was very busy with a lot of work, but I was reading this book on the sly. At first, starting with the preface, she made such a confused impression on me: the book is illiterate. And I put it aside. In May, Kutyakov writes me a letter and insistently asks: "Are you working on a book?" I say: "There is no time yet, because your book is very thick, but as soon as the time is ripe - I am now busy with work in the troops, preparing for summer combat training, - as soon as the time is ripe, I will read your book." I also told him that I started with a preface, but it’s already clear to me what needs to be revised here: the book is messy written.

Then the summer of 1934 passes. During that summer I read some parts of this book. Mainly I liked the tactical episodes there: how he crossed the Dnieper, how he advanced with his division to Borodyagin (?) [6] . Documents were attached, orders were attached. I myself took part in the battles, I knew how he fought on the Eastern Front. I myself was in the 24th division - not a bad division. The very nature of the actions, it was close to me, and I liked the presentation.

Voice . Then Tukhachevsky spoke well of this book.

Sedyakin . I do not know about this, I did not speak with Tukhachevsky about this.

Voice . Did not tell? Oh oh oh!

Sedyakin . All those present here will not deny and will say that Tukhachevsky never treated me like a comrade; and only very recently, when I was his subordinate, did the relationship get a little better, and even then there was no real companionship towards me.

Voice . He opposed political work.

Sedyakin . I have never opposed political work. (Noise.)

Voice . But what about the speaker at the Military Council?

Sedyakin . I'll come to this later, and you will have the opportunity to judge me. October comes, November 1934. Kutyakov comes and says to me (this happened during the Military Council): "Well, what about my book?" I say: “The summer was very busy, I could not really understand your book. The introduction of the book is chaotic and needs to be revised, but I like the tactical examples. " He says: “Comrade. Stalin is very interested in this book, I received reliable information about it, and the book should be published as soon as possible. " I say, “Okay. As soon as I get free, I will do this business. The month of February - I may be mistaken in months now - the month of February comes 1935.

Voices . Give this book a direct assessment. Essentially. History is not necessary.

Sedyakin . Here, comrades, it is important how it happened. I'll take you a few minutes. So, in the month of February, I finally finished with this book and wrote a preface. I presented it to my boss, Chief of the General Staff, Comrade Egorov. Comrade For a long time Egorov did not receive me on questions of this book. I still wanted to know what, what is his opinion about this book and my preface that I wrote. And in the month of May he called me and said: “You are in vain in this matter. Kutyakov wants to discredit the Cavalry Army. " I say: "Alexander Ilyich, I read these places, it seems that there is no visible discrediting of the Cavalry Army, because he describes the period after Zhitomir, when Zhitomir was occupied and the Poles' front was disrupted."

Voroshilov . How can you write a preface without reading this book.

Egorov . (The replica is not captured). I wrote you a note about this.

Sedyakin .I have not seen such expressions there. I don't have this note. And so I must report on how this matter developed further, why, as a matter of fact, I undertook to write the preface to this book. I saw in this book that it describes the events that took place in the 3rd Army, and, in my opinion, he focused his main attention, the main blow on the actions of the 12th Army. He pointed out the disorganization of the leadership of the 12th Army, pointed out that the Yakir group, the 58th division, and the 7th division were moving without control, that the headquarters were 40-50 kilometers behind, which during the period when the headquarters was in Kiev , the army was in Korostyn. But you know how it all happened, when we ourselves fought, the headquarters was always with the army, never broke away, I knew that in the 24th division and in others the headquarters always accompanied the army. It appealed to me.

Voice . You sang the praises of this book and the 25th division.

Sedyakin . I don’t sing praises because I used to know this 25th division. You yourself know that we sang Chapaev and other heroes, and I liked that. And, finally, I looked at this matter like this: let Kutyakov be mistaken, we have not dealt with historical events at all, let this book come out, let it be covered; at least the real truth will be revealed. I assure you, I was guided here only by desire ...

Voice . Give an assessment to this book.

Sedyakin . Well, now it is clear to me, it is known that the Russian man is strong in hindsight, I was politically blind in this matter. I did not see the meanness that Kutyakov was spreading here. And my own behavior here, of course, I cannot otherwise evaluate somehow, which is objectively ... Objectively against my will, against my will, I have committed meanness here.

Now I must say about Comrade Tyulenev. He can confirm. When I found out that the issue was being discussed at a party meeting, that I had written an incorrect, politically harmful preface, I called him: “What's the matter? Remember, we told you that you need to meet. I never hold on to a mistake. " We agreed to meet. Simonov is here. I said: "Let's get together and deal with this issue, if I made a gross political mistake, I am ready to correct it." I called Osepian, I told Klochkov: “Let me read the preface if I did not read it carefully, that is. time to correct the mistake. " This was the case with this book. There is nothing to justify here - what is written with a pen cannot be cut out with an ax. And in this respect I cannot justify my behavior. Objectively, this is meanness, but subjectively, I did not think about it.

Here Comrade Alksnis spoke and in general here other comrades spoke about the fact that our combat training was unfavorable. I think you yourself know. Let us take the question of monitoring combat training.

Voroshilov . Finish, your time is up.

Sedyakin . Allow me a few more minutes. Every year, at the end of the year, I went out with combat training that both Uborevich and Tukhachevsky were the wings of me; blamed for not looking enough and never had the opportunity to say my word.

In particular, there was a general attitude about control. In my opinion, you cannot control combat training with paper, because they lied on paper. And it was necessary for living people to check. And an inspection apparatus was created for this. At first, this was the directive of the Military Council and the People's Commissar, they held on to it and no one spoke against it. I was not against the written reports, but I raised the issue of receiving reports on combat training and even having a conversation with Comrade Alksnis about this.

Alksnis . On the contrary, when the question was raised that it was necessary to send reports about the Air Force, you did not agree.

Sedyakin . I never thought about it. Regarding the treason and meanness that we found in our ranks. As a boss, I am responsible that I did not give signals in my work. I am fully responsible here.

Voice . With Primakov, how?

Sedyakin . I had nothing in common with Primakov, except that he was my deputy. I believed in Yakir, but the Ukrainian Military District suspected of fraud and tried to expose the fraud. Regarding the Kiev maneuvers, I wrote to the People's Commissar that such maneuvers are harmful, that they disorient both the army and the army.

Then, in 1936, Fesenko was present here, and I went specifically to the Ukrainian Military District to see how they were doing with their combat training. And he went not to solemn maneuvers, but to small maneuvers, to the so-called Polesie maneuvers. I sent a report on these maneuvers to Comrade People's Commissar, in which I described the true state of affairs. What did they say about this report? That it was the murderous report that killed them. What did I discover there during these maneuvers? A disgusting formulation of the matter, reaching the point that the order came to the division in 9-12 days.

How to explain the success of the Shepetivka maneuvers? [7] I've just found out. Then there was a complete contrast. Why did the Shepetivka maneuvers go so well? Now Fesenko said that, it turns out, they had a rehearsal of the Shepetovsky maneuvers. It turns out that these maneuvers were directed by the headquarters itself, and the leadership indicated when to start. This explains the colossal success of the Shepetivka maneuvers. But how could you have guessed then, how could you have seen when Yakir enjoyed such authority among the commanders?

About Uborevich. You know how he treated me, and I have always been critical of the training of troops by Uborevich. These were the maneuvers of 1936. I can only now see how cleverly everything was arranged. I only saw something in one small episode, but the truth is, my mistake was that I did not tell anyone about it. What was that episode? In one place of the collision of mechanized battalions, the mediator reports: "Just now I just received a message that such and such a mechanized brigade is approaching such and such a point, and told the commander that they need to be attacked." I asked, "Why did he say?" He replied: "Because our maneuvers are built this way." My fault is that I did not pay much attention to this and did not tell anyone.

So, in relation to Yakir, in relation to Uborevich, there were signals and only our excessive trust, our political blindness did not allow us to see that the enemy was rubbing his glasses and doing something harmful to us.

Voroshilov . Comrade Sivkov has the floor.

Sivkov . Comrades, in the material that was distributed to us, and then in Comrade Voroshilov's report, we saw and heard only about two naval people: Kurkov [8] and Batis. I must report to you that these two people - insignificant people - did not enjoy any authority in the navy and, strictly speaking, it is somewhat strange to hear that so few people were discovered among us. Here we have to act according to the old proverb “wait and see”.

Voices . Calm proverb. Wrong proverb. It is not applicable here.

Sivkov . “We’ll wait and see” not in the sense that we will not do anything, but in the sense that between May 1 and May 7 we saw facts that we did not know before. Nevertheless, under the leadership of their spies, their leaders, they crept into the fleet, and we have a number of signals that speak of this.

I will focus on ships of the line first. In the Baltic Fleet, two commissars were opened (there are not pompolits, but commissars), and so, on these ships, two commissars turned out to be pests. One of them - Mukhin on the "October Revolution", and the other - Viktorov on the "Marat". I must report to you that if we removed Mukhin long ago, and not for sabotage reasons, but because he behaved badly and rudely, and we had a number of signals from below. True, they did not suspect that he was a Trotskyist, then Viktorov was removed quite recently, just before the Marat's campaign in England.

It seems to me that the roots of these cases still remain on the "October Revolution". It is a pity that Comrade Yezhov is not present now; I would like to tell him about it. The fact is that when I escorted the Marat with its entire combat-ready core to the Baltic Sea, the rags spontaneously ignited in the second tower in the mobile charging cellar, as was thought until now. I must remind you that there was already such a terrible incident on the Marat, when the entire tower was burnt out with all the personnel. We found that in the artillery patrol, which walks every two hours through all the cellars of the battleship (and there almost the entire hold free from mechanisms is filled with explosives), there were suspicious people in this artillery patrol. We've checked all these people, but we still need to remove some of them. In particular, the patrol was in this tower 20 minutes before the smoke appeared and did not notice anything. We have now introduced the strictest system for sealing all the towers, checked the entire train, carried out this by orders, but such a case did take place. On the Marat there was a case of a 12-inch projectile falling, an extremely strange incident, because everything was organized to the last degree very illiterately. On the "Marat" we had a flooded stoker, because one young sailor did not know how to handle the Kingston at all[9] and instead of closing it, he opened it. These facts indicate that not all roots have been uprooted yet.

A very difficult case happened recently in aviation. I considered it necessary to tell about this in more detail, so I delayed my speech a little, because I wanted to get one material, but, unfortunately, I didn't get it. On May 22, one after the other, within an hour, two P-6A planes were killed on floats. One plane was flying at low level, and the other - at an altitude of about a thousand meters. Both of them fell in an hour. And when we looked at the first plane, we found that it died, of course, from sabotage reasons. There are two rods to the depth rudder, and in the middle of these rods, obviously, in order to be able to pull the cables, there is a so-called tender. It is a steel tube, screwed on the inside, in which two screws with lugs are screwed on both sides, on which the cables are pulled. Each screw must be screwed in 9 threads. On this plane, it was screwed onto the thread and the opened thread was wrapped in thick wire. Thus, the pin-thick rods here were 2 mm thick. When the plane was lifted, it was discovered that this thrust was cut off at this tender, and the second tender was made in the same way, but did not break off. The second plane fell to a depth of 50 meters. he fell from a great height, he apparently crashed. Now we are taking out individual parts, but we have not yet got the whole plane. We had such a fact. Now we are taking out individual parts, but we have not yet got the whole plane. We had such a fact. Now we are taking out individual parts, but we have not yet got the whole plane. We had such a fact.

We immediately, of course, rushed to the 20th squadron, looked at it carefully and found two technicians - one Boryakov, the other Varshavsky. The first, Boryakov, admitted that he had committed sabotage, and the second technician behaved in such a way that he said: "You did not raise the plane, the wind is blowing, I did not do anything there, the plane died for some unknown reason." Bazenkov's commission found that the condition of the materiel of the aircraft in the 20th squadron was good. They reported that the planes were in exemplary condition, and until the plane was raised, we wondered that we had the wrong training; we do not fly blindly, although our aviation course is supposed to fly blindly, the efforts of the commission were directed there. Then, after this cause was discovered, all the planes were checked, it turned out that that everything is in order and this squadron is considered a good squadron, but everything is built on trust, there is no real military order, which should be in the squadron. The commission limited itself to inspecting the material part of this squadron, which was generally good, and thanks to such complacency and calmness, the enemy thus harmed us. But we do not know where the threads go, and Boryakov and Varshavsky acted on someone's instigation. In the Baltic Sea, they did a lot of damage in construction. both Boryakov and Varshavsky acted on someone's instigation. In the Baltic Sea, they did a lot of damage in construction. both Boryakov and Varshavsky acted on someone's instigation. In the Baltic Sea, they did a lot of damage in construction.

Voice . In the 105th brigade.

Sivkov . Now we are examining where it came from. A 2.5-thread screw is tightened there, when it should be twisted by 12-15 threads.

Voice . Have you accepted the ship?

Sivkov . With regard to the engineering department. Our engineering department was headed by Maksimov. It is now clear that he worked along the line of delaying construction, and last year not a single combat facility was completed on time. A very difficult situation with streams.

Voice . You are confusing, this is not the same Maximov.

Sivkov . This large construction has not yet been approved by the government. Until now, issues related to other people's commissariats have not been resolved. The issue of a new large base, the cost of which is equal to half a billion rubles, is not being resolved in any way. ( Chairman calls.)

Now a few words about shipbuilding. The leader [10] , about whom comrade Kozhanov spoke, this leader is now undergoing final tests. He was indeed adopted in the Baltic Sea. But how is it done? The formal approval of the act is made by the head of the Naval Forces Directorate, but although we have accepted the leader, we do not use it. We accepted it in the fall, the plant pledged to complete all work by May, and yet it must be admitted that in reality it did nothing, it required government intervention. It was supposed to send the leader abroad so that during three months of the most intense work this leader would be recognized (?) [11] . It was reported to me that the leader successfully passed the tests and is now a combat ship.

Vote. About the minesweepers.

[ Sivkov .] But I must report to you. The fact is that [that] the leader consists of the following parts: firstly, he builds his shipbuilding industry in terms of machinery, then the equipment is ordered by the Department of the Naval Forces and installed by the Bolshevik plant; finally, there are naval fire control devices, ordered by the Directorate of the Naval Forces at one time in Italy. I took part in this. This complex complex is not yet finally ready. The ship, in itself a good one, is not completely finished yet. I believe that we made the mistake of accepting the leader, it was impossible to accept. As for the minesweepers, the minesweepers had, of course, to build others, these minesweepers are bad.

Voroshilov . Comrade Uritsky has the floor.

Uritsky .Comrade Stalin, in his speech yesterday and at the last plenum of the Central Committee of the Party, very clearly showed us the reasons due to which this vile espionage, sabotage, counter-revolutionary, anti-Soviet work was possible. He pointed out to us the reasons for political blindness, idiotic carelessness. These reasons: ignoring the fact of the capitalist encirclement, ignoring the political and educational party work, lack of self-criticism, ecstasy with success. Three months have almost passed since the plenum of the Central Committee of the Party, and today we are all almost without exception, I think there is not a single person who does not feel all the shame, his guilt for what is happening. It is clear that we have not shown the qualities that a Bolshevik should display. This clearly follows, and, correctly, I agree with Comrade Alksnis, there were many cases, many, there was no shortage. If we had enough political sagacity, political foresight, and acuteness to reveal earlier all these vile, criminal cases that we are now going through, we would not be faced with such facts now.

For example, the question about good work as a criterion for evaluating each of us. Take Gamarnik. Contact with him gave repeated confirmation that this man was not working to strengthen the Red Army. After all, he did not decide a single issue himself, he blamed everything on the People's Commissar.

Voices . Right. He decided his questions.

Uritsky . Second. There was a group around him. Everyone knew this, and we all talked about it among ourselves. A Ukrainian group with roots that go far back. I must say frankly that I myself experienced a very bad attitude from Gamarnik. He often told me (there are witnesses): "You, - Uritsky, are a very intelligent person, but something is not right with you, you are a quarrelsome person." And in fact, he carried out this bad attitude towards me. Many of you, comrades, knew how Garkavy and Gamarnik, not without Slavin's help, survived me from the Leningrad Military District, how they denigrated Belov, a man who had no personal life, [who] really knows military affairs. I saw him in battle. This is the man who will lead into battle for our party. They defamed me, they got me out of there.

Slavin . You and Garkavy had very good personal relations.

Uritsky . It is you, Slavin, who are chatting.

Slavin . You, as the chief of staff, demanded the subordination of all to yourself.

Uritsky . In a word, you, together with Gamarnik and Garkavy, survived from there. These are the facts. I remember this is very revealing. I was a corps commander in Ukraine. We started maneuvers, I don't remember, it was in 1929 [or] [19] 30. I was in command, Slavin, Garkavy. Thanks to Garkavy's complete mediocrity, he absolutely failed there. It got to the point that he was taken prisoner while he was eating chicken. Yakir tells me: "You don't tell anyone about this." Then they surrounded me for 2 days, they did not let me move. During this encirclement of mine, they did not have enough troops, and they began to take an army from me to surround me. When the army broke through, Yakir said: "Although the encirclement failed, but if the maneuvers continued, Garkavy would have defeated Uritsky." I did not say goodbye to Yakir and left.

Voice . Right.

Uritsky . Dubovoy shrugged his shoulders, did not know what was happening. Gryaznov said: "A comedy is happening." Right?

Gryaznov . Right.

Uritsky . Khakhanyan and Grishin did not understand what was happening. And I think [12] that Garkavy pulls his man. But I did not have enough political foresight to understand that this is a system of promoting one's people not according to their merits, but according to the sign of their brother.

With regard to Tukhachevsky. I must say that in the winter there was a very suspicious sign of Tukhachevsky. True, the People's Commissar poked us at this matter, drew attention. Then it passed into the more qualified hands of Comrade. Yezhov and he really opened it. But here's an example. We learned that the game of the General Staff, which was held in 1936, is known to the Poles and Germans, and we received documentary materials about the content of this game, which indicates the data in this game, the operation.

Voice . With diagrams.

Uritsky . Yes, with diagrams. True, we were vigilant here: the People's Commissar was told, Comrade. Yezhov took up this business. But what have we done? We developed rules for ensuring secrecy in war games, and then we were not enough. The enemy did not see any difficulty in obtaining secret documents when these bandits who were sitting with us turned out to be enemies. And here it should be noted that Yakir and others were constantly traveling with suitcases filled with the most classified materials and instructions. I remember that Klimenty Efremovich pointed out dozens of times not only to Yakir, but also to others sitting here that this helps to reveal the secret to the enemy.

Kuibyshev . You tell me, why do they call your name based on the materials?

Uritsky . I will tell. Here's an operational plan. We were working on the German operational plan and came to the conclusion that they have an increase of several divisions. Tukhachevsky stunned us for several days in a row: "There cannot be so many divisions." Thanks to the checks on our line and on the line of the NKVD, this could no longer be denied, it was established that, undoubtedly, there were so many divisions. Then he began to assure: "They will not pass through the limitrophes, because the limitrophes will not let them in." Of course, even then there was a full opportunity to oppose this case, but there was not enough courage, there was not enough political foresight to rise. Comrade Dybenko speaks wrong. You, Comrade Dybenko, I don't remember what year, 1926 ...

Voice . In 1925.

[ Uritsky .] ... we protested against Tukhachevsky's work as Chief of Staff [of the Red Army]. We believed him, we considered him then a capable person, but at the same time we considered him a lazy person.

We thought for a long time how to do it: should we go to Kliment Efremovich or should we go to him? We decided to do the latter. They came to him and said that we consider you a capable person, but lazy, you are not doing anything, and we ask you to report this to the People's Commissar, to report that you are not doing anything. (Movement in the hall.) There are witnesses here. Here is Comrade Fedko ...

Voice . Right.

Uritsky . And you, Comrade Dybenko, then went to Kliment Efremovich and put the question upside down.

( Dybenko's remark was not captured.)

Voice . Both you and Dybenko were involved in politics.

Uritsky . I categorically deny, and the People's Commissar examined this case: there was no politicking on my part.

Kuibyshev . In the testimony of Efimov you are indicated.

Uritsky . I did not take any part in their conversation and could not passively listen to their anti-Soviet jokes, if only because I fought in Chechnya in 1929, and in 1930 was a corps commander. In general, I was not friends with Efimov, because he is an officer, of this officer type. Maybe I only visited him 7-8 times during business trips. There are 20-25 commanders here who worked under my leadership during the Civil War: vols. Abtsev, Tsarev, the commander of the Testov regiment and others. They know and can confirm that I have never been passive. I constantly fought and led them to fight against Trotsky as the most sworn enemy of the Revolution.

Voice . Right.

Uritsky . So all these statements are nonsense. I thought a lot about how it came about that many of us present here, who fought Trotsky a lot and actively, went blind and brought the matter to such a scandal. I think that Smirnov is right here that we began to lose our partisanship. In some places we could see naked soldierism, which made us politically blind. There is nothing to hide, they often beat us with what they called quarrelsome, accused of squabbling, and when we were obliged to show our Bolshevik intransigence, we smoothed out, suppressed by the authority that these enemies had.

Bibik . As for Bukhartsev, tell me about your connection with him.

Uritsky . Comrade Bibik, you are not lying, I met Bukhartsev only once in Leningrad. (Many lines.)

Voice . Tell about your relationship with Kabakov about your correspondence with abroad.

Uritsky . That's right, when I was a corps commander, I wrote one letter to Kabakov.

Kuibyshev . Did you visit Pyatakov?

Voice . Pyatakov had it.

Uritsky . Happened, we know. After all, you, too, have been at Efimov's, and the devil only knows where you have never been. I am ready to answer for everything where I have been. But I have never been passive. I have always fought against Trotsky. According to Pyatakov's report, Trotsky expelled me from the academy, and Comrade Stalin reinstated me. In 1921, I actively fought against Trotsky. In 1926, I signed a statement stating that Trotsky could not be a people's commissar [13] ; I had the courage. In 1922, Trotsky, from the rostrum of the Central Committee, smashed me, Fedko, Dybenko, Belov as people who were politicizing against him. So I have never been passive.

These corrupt false generals, whom we did not have the foresight to expose, they were always weak because they did not have an army, generals without an army. The whole army was with the party. On behalf of the People's Commissar, I have to send a fairly large number of people to special exercises. I see how these people live by the interests and affairs of our party and are ready to give their whole lives for this cause.

Here is one small and modest document in front of me. One pilot, before going into battle, wrote a letter to his wife, sewed it into his shirt in case he died, to hand the letter to his wife. He wrote this letter, went into battle and died. And in this letter there are these words: “Dear, dear, faithful wife. Our Motherland will not leave you to the mercy of fate. You will be provided with your son. I died for the Spanish revolution in Spain, in the fight against fascism. I fulfilled the tasks of the party and government, I was sent by our great leader of the whole people, Comrade. Stalin to defend our great Motherland. Remember me in my favorite song about the Motherland: “My native country is wide, there are many forests, fields and rivers in it, I don’t know any other country where people breathe so freely”. Tell your son who his father was and why he died. " Comrades, when you see these people off to special exercises, you see clearly that these people would never have gone after three-time corrupt spies. This is our strength and their weakness. But our weakness is that, as Comrade Stalin pointed out, we are showing carelessness, short-sightedness, and lack of self-criticism.

It is very difficult to admit all this here before the government, before the Politburo. Now the task is for us to take this lesson thoroughly into account and set to work in such a way that the oath that Kliment Efremovich made to the government and to Stalin is fulfilled, so that our army does not carry a single criminal and scoundrel.

Voroshilov . Comrade Khripin has the floor.

Khripin . Comrades, there were so many difficult situations in the life of the Air Fleet that one cannot but see the hands of enemies in this. The hands of enemies were reaching out to the Air Fleet from all sides, and we - the commanders of the Air Fleet, political workers of our Red Aviation - did not notice these hands of the enemies and only now have we fully assimilated those diseases, those breakthroughs in our training, in our construction, which took place in which we paid little attention to. Take, for example, such a question that literally every year was striking, and the signs and symptoms of which we see now. I'm talking about disruptions to flight operations every summer. Almost every year, as a rule, the Air Fleet does not fly in summer. Why? Because, it turns out, there is no fuel.

Voice . No gasoline.

Khripin .There is no fuel because the sowing campaign has begun; there is no fuel, because preparations are underway for the harvest campaign; there is no fuel, because the harvest campaign has been launched. During the hottest time, June-July-August, aviation cannot work. And this year, the first signs have already begun, miserable drops of fuel are already being issued, 50 tons per brigade, and this is fuel for one day. How did we look at this case? We calmed down with such an explanation that the country is indeed carrying out its next campaign and therefore the Air Fleet lacks the means with which it can work, and put an end to it. And now we see that the economic support of the Air Fleet was directed by the enemies, that the question of rail transport for our fuel supply was in the hands of the enemy. And now these interruptions have become completely understandable.

Take this question. Last year we had to write an instruction for independent action of the Air Force. They wrote. Who did this instruction come to? Into the hands of the enemy Tukhachevsky, he pickled it for several months, forced it to radically alter it. And I argue that the instruction came out in a worse form, compared to how it was written.

Voice . Right.

Khripin . Second question. An instruction on military combat [14] was prepared- the first in our life. Not a bad instruction, Comrade People's Commissar, I prepared it. This instruction came to Tukhachevsky, and he tried to marinate it by all means - this first test of the pen - to teach our fighters and other fighters.

Voice . Failed.

Khripin . We failed because you, Comrade People's Commissar, interfered in this matter. Tukhachevsky sent this instruction to Vasilchenko abroad, this instruction was pickled for months.

Take such a question as the technique for improving our weapons. We can say straightforwardly that it was held in the hands of Tukhachevsky. All questions for the People's Commissar of Defense and for the government passed through the hands of Tukhachevsky. I believe that in this area we had a lot of evil that has not yet been rooted out, the kind of evil that we now feel. One has only to remember what we have done in terms of aircraft designs, in terms of inventions. Tukhachevsky adopted 6-engine, 8-engine and 12-engine aircraft and pulled Tupolev and other designers into this weapon. The Ostechbyuro suggested the idea of ​​transporting 18-ton submarines on airplanes. And this idea is supported by Tukhachevsky, and it took a lot of struggle to prove the lack of independence [15]such an idea - to carry 18 tons in order for this boat to fire one light torpedo. Why [would] not take 18 tons of bombs instead of this submarine, if [would] such an aircraft were adopted?

Such ideas were put into practice, they hammered our industry with unnecessary structures, and sometimes we did not receive the property we needed. Indeed, when did twin-engine aircraft appear? Most recently, after six years we were without new planes. Only at the insistence of Comrades. Voroshilov and Stalin, these aircraft began to be produced for service. We're doing pretty well with the fighters. And Tukhachevsky intervened in this matter. He summoned the artillerymen, surrounded himself with a synclite of scientists; they calculated that 12-16 machine guns had to be supplied for the fighters, and he began to approach new machine designs with this yardstick, and put so many machine guns on them.

Voice . He appointed himself the chairman of the layout commission.

Khripin . He appointed himself the chairman of the prototyping commission and squeezed the whole thing. We lost months and years on these things to improve our technique. This is now an obvious fact for us. Here the hand of pests touched experimental construction as the most important area for improving our technology, and we need to revise this area again.

Such a question as the installation of Kurchevsky guns [16] on fighters. I remember how it happened. There was a meeting with Tukhachevsky. Rosenko and others were there. I opposed this and said that Kurchevsky's cannon is a ramming weapon, and by no means a weapon for long-range combat. So I was defamed, ridiculed and never invited to any meetings. It was difficult to fight. It was difficult to see the enemy's hand behind all this. We saw in all these decisions decisions of responsible persons, authoritative, and did not raise the issue, because should have been raised further, over the head of these authorities before other authorities. We didn't have the courage to do it. This is also my fault, like many other commanders working in our Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army, to my personal shame and shame.

The question of combat training and the fight against accidents. There was such a slogan that high combat training can only be when we fly boldly, we will not be afraid of heights. This slogan came from Belarus from Kushakov. I remember how we fought with Kushakov. And, apparently, Uborevich felt that he had to surrender, and an order from the People's Commissariat appeared, systematic work on combat training, training courses appeared. Another course has appeared. The senior aviation commander was deprived of the leading role, the headquarters in the Air Force Directorate was lost. I had to leave from there. The headquarters in the districts were disbanded. Air Force chiefs of staff were turned into inactive consultants. The commanders were firmly in command. And I must say that many commanders sensed a revolutionary line in this and even, I would say, some of its advantages. Have mercy, the commander himself is directly subordinate! This situation lasted for a year and a half. It was only at the end of 1935 that this situation was corrected again, and a body for commanding the Air Force was created again. But even today it has not yet been completed. We have an enormous shortage of these bodies. These bodies are the only source for the deployment of aviation control in wartime. And this body is clearly insufficient to branch off the necessary commanders into army aviation headquarters. These bodies are the only source for the deployment of aviation control in wartime. And this body is clearly insufficient to branch off the necessary commanders into army aviation headquarters. These bodies are the only source for the deployment of aviation control in wartime. And this body is clearly insufficient to branch off the necessary commanders into army aviation headquarters.

And the last question. I think that today [not] there is not a single aviation commander - an honest commander and political worker - who would say that our aviation organization fully meets the needs of war and the modest needs of peacetime.

Voices . Right.

Khripin . This is perfectly clear. It can be proved. Two years ago, a new organization for our rear services was developed at the Air Force Directorate. This organization was pickled, Alafuso and others. The People's Commissar was presented with a certificate that this was beyond his power, this breaking would require many additional rations; and the organization failed as a result.

Comrades, many of these things have now been revealed, which we passed by as if we were past an objective phenomenon associated with various difficulties. And most importantly, we were content with the authority of many, those who turned out to be our worst enemies. We need to continue, especially in the Air Force, to have healthy, constant, systematic criticism. We need the commander to work with the masses. We need the masses to help us see our mistakes. Unfortunately, this is not enough in the Air Force. We had a line: what the senior commander would say, in whatever situation he said it, put everything under the combat order: "I obey, that's right." This "obeying" cannot be now. A battle order is a battle order, but where necessary, you need to listen to the masses. The commander must listen and must unfold the work not only on his own speculation, but with the constant help of the masses, then we will cope with the task. We will again acquire political farsightedness and will not allow the enemy to do his dirty, dirty deed and be in our ranks under all sorts of masks. We will tear off these masks and lead the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army wherever the government directs.

Voroshilov (presiding). Comrade Troyanker has the floor.

Trojanker .Comrades, we - political workers - bear a huge responsibility before the party and the country for the fact that many of us turned out to be politically blind people, failed to see the enemy who penetrated our ranks, to the most responsible, most leading posts. I think that it is not enough to say: we are all ashamed, because what each of us is experiencing cannot be said to be just shame. I must say that my heart bleeds when you think that you trusted such people as Gamarnik, Osepyan, and a number of other traitors, traitors and spies. The comrades were right here when they spoke about the toothlessness of political workers, but I would like to say that this toothlessness is a fact that cannot be attributed to political workers throughout the entire period. After all, the party did not raise the question of that the political workers of the Red Army in all periods were distinguished by toothlessness, lack of sharpness. There was some reason that created this toothlessness. And it seems to me that here it is necessary to say about this with all the acuteness. Here many comrades spoke about party political work, about the weak level of party political work. It must be said that for a number of years there has been an attack on the party-political apparatus by Tukhachevsky, by Uborevich, by all their henchmen. Direct attack, frenzied attack. You remember that in 1932 there was a proposal to eliminate the political instructors. It must be said that for a number of years there has been an attack on the party-political apparatus by Tukhachevsky, by Uborevich, by all their henchmen. Direct attack, frenzied attack. You remember that in 1932 there was a proposal to eliminate the political instructors. It must be said that for a number of years there has been an attack on the party-political apparatus by Tukhachevsky, by Uborevich, by all their henchmen. Direct attack, frenzied attack. You remember that in 1932 there was a proposal to eliminate the political instructors.

Voice . It was back in 1928.

Trojanker .Yes, back in 1928. There are some comrades here who knew how we came to Gamarnik and protested against the liquidation of political instructors. This is the most important weapon of political work. Gamarnik said nothing to us, but then there was a decision by Comrade. Stalin and comrade. Voroshilov to leave the political instructor. There were endless calculations of how many political workers we had; said they were superfluous people. The ideologist was Feldman in the first place, who everywhere and everywhere argued that the capitalist army has much less commanding staff, and there are many commanders and political workers in the Red Army, that it is necessary to reduce political workers. Endless calculations took place in front of everyone; there was a desire to belittle both the political apparatus and political work. And these people - Tukhachevsky, Feldman - they hated political work, they hated the political apparatus.

Comrades, I literally had to bargain for each part. I worked at PUR for more than a year as head of the cultural and educational department. From there I was transferred to the Civil Air [ear] fleet. I worked as a chief in a leading political body. I had to see and observe every political worker. Comrade Sedyakin, I do not want to compare you with these people, but you were an active participant in the attack on the party apparatus when you were training personnel.

Voices . Right.

[ Trojanker .] You tried to curtail, you said that it hinders the political growth of the commander. This applies to you, and you did not say anything about it in your speech. It would be necessary to say about it. Were we able to give this striving, this attack on party-political work to rebuff? Failed. And on this, in political work in the first place, we turned out to be blind and did not see an enemy behind it. And the first person who blinded us all was Gamarnik.

This is not to say that there were no signals. The People's Commissar said that he received few signals. Signals to Gamarnicu were repeated, but these signals did not reach the People's Commissar. These signals were. I personally remember the signal regarding the air defense. There was an in-depth survey of the air defense. It revealed a terrible state: lack of communication, lack of organization - in fact, the air defense was an empty place. This was reported to Gamarnik quite at length with the requirement to report on the state of the air defense to the People's Commissar. What did Gamarnik do? He did not report to the people's commissar, and then, 2-3 weeks later, he sent all this material, my entire report to Kamenev, who himself was a spy and a traitor. A month and a half later, when the question of Nemov was discussed at the Kiev regional committee as an enemy of the people, Feldman also appeared there. Nemov met ... [17]in the presence of Feldman. The signal was given, but this signal was not taken into account. We turned out to be politically blind people. Comrades, I must say that Gamarnik led a line of separation from the Central Committee of the Party. This must be said with all its sharpness.

Voices . Right.

[ Troyanker .] In fact, the materials that were in the PUR, they did not get into the Central Committee of the party, he did not give this opportunity. Whenever the question was raised whether the People's Commissar should be written, perhaps the Central Committee should be written, he did not give this opportunity, and we trusted him, we thought that he himself would report to the Central Committee of the Party. The point was not only that we had no connection with the Central Committee of the Party, but the main thing was that he was leading the case to break away from the Central Committee of the Party.

Take, for example, the question of the Karelian brigade. In this Karelian brigade, as it was revealed later, there was the greatest contamination with spy elements. This sharp material about the Karelian brigade, which was in the PUR, he did not get to the Central Committee. It was a certain line that he led from year to year. He brought up the workers in such a way that we can decide these matters ourselves, and there is no need for you to go to the people's commissar, and even more so to the Central Committee of the party.

A very big mistake is that there was no political approach to the selection of people; and there is nothing surprising in the fact that people who were engaged in sabotage were at the head of the political administrations; there is nothing surprising in the fact that enemies were at the head of these institutions.

I want to give you some data on the Moscow garrison. It would seem that the Moscow garrison is a very important area, and here people must be carefully selected and tested. However, when we began to superficially get acquainted with the composition of the Moscow garrison, it turns out that from most of the units that are in Moscow, we have to dismiss or transfer a large number of people. I had to fire and transfer a number of people from the Special Cavalry Division, 5th Mechanized Brigade. The air defense division was especially littered, and the people were not small - the commanders of the divisions. There are dozens of people in Moscow who are not allowed to attend parades. These are embittered people who should not have a place in the Moscow garrison, but they are sitting here. I can give examples: for example, Sychev is a division commander of an artillery regiment. The Cheka was arrested on suspicion of participation in a counter-revolutionary uprising. In 1924, while studying at the Leningrad school, he was arrested by the GPU and sentenced to three years. Sagunov studied in the cadet corps, keeps in touch with anti-Soviet people, etc. These people are not allowed to parades, but they are sitting in Moscow. I can give you an example concerning the medical unit of an air defense division. Look what bouquet these people represent: Kinel is the chief of the sanitary service, half of the family is in Germany. The senior doctor of the regiment Salazkin ... concerning the sanitary unit of the air defense division. Look what bouquet these people represent: Kinel is the chief of the sanitary service, half of the family is in Germany. The senior doctor of the regiment Salazkin ... concerning the sanitary unit of the air defense division. Look what bouquet these people represent: Kinel is the chief of the sanitary service, half of the family is in Germany. The senior doctor of the regiment Salazkin ...(is reading). That is, in fact, the entire sanitary service of this very air defense division consists entirely of hostile people. It is necessary to firmly clean the Moscow garrison and remove from there all the enemies who have crept in there.

Concerning the Belarusian-Tolmachev opposition. The documents that we have read indicate that Trotsky is based on the Belarusian-Tolmachev opposition. This opposition is undoubtedly Trotskyist. We all remember what a hot war we had to endure with these people who accused our army leadership of Chiang Kai-shekism, and in particular Comrade Voroshilov, who, opposing the one-man command, actually opposed the party army leadership. They, these people, used all sorts of Trotskyist methods of slander, they opposed us and fought with us, attacking the party line. Some of these people still remain in leadership positions. We must carefully examine these people, there is no doubt that there are honest workers among them. But I repeat: we must carefully review them so that those people

Voroshilov . Comrade Fedko.

Fedko . Comrades, our enemies were preparing for defeat not only here in the West - in the Belarusian Military District, in the Ukrainian Military District and in other districts, and the corresponding espionage work was carried out. This espionage work in any way could not but be carried out in the Far East. And, undoubtedly, the same defeat was being prepared in the Far East that Yakir, Uborevich and Tukhachevsky prepared here in the West.

I want to report on the situation that has evolved over the course of a number of years in the Far East and on that group of spies and saboteurs, enemies of the people, which was preparing for defeat in the Far East. Now it becomes completely clear why I, being sent by the People's Commissar of Defense, the Central Committee of the Party, and Comrade Stalin to the Far East, was literally greeted with hostility from Lapin, Aronshtam, Sangursky. This group undoubtedly belongs to the exaggeration of rumors that Comrade Blucher will not return to the Far East, that the group of comrade Fedko, sent by the Central Committee of the Party to the Far East, are the Varangians, called upon to save the Far East, to strengthen the the work that was carried out before our arrival, it is not so bad and so on.

Third. This group also includes the persecution of Comrade Blucher and the discrediting of Commander OKDVA Comrade Blucher. And this discrediting was disguised at first glance by the circumstances that arose personally for comrade Blucher.

Blucher . And you name them, what are the circumstances?

Fedko . I just want to talk about these circumstances. Comrade Blucher was often ill. This is not a secret to anyone. He was absent from the Far East for a long time and, in fact, the actual rulers of the army were Aronshtam, Sangursky, Lapin. And we must say frankly here, Comrade Blucher, that this group also enjoyed your support to a certain extent. I will talk about this further. But I don't mean in any way ...

Blucher . Not certainly in that way.

Fedko . ... And I have no data to indicate that Comrade Blucher is in any way involved in this case - I have no data - but I know a number of facts, and I believe and I am convinced of this, and this can be verified, that the entire public opinion of the OKDVA in the person of the commanding political personnel knows Comrade Blucher's attitude to this group. Comrade Blucher listened to this group. This can be verified in relation to me. I do not know what Comrade Blucher's claims against me could have been, because I worked, my work was visible to all the people who were in the ranks of the OKDVA.

And the same enemy Gamarnik who came, he could not in any way belittle my work, because it meant going against the public opinion of the commanding staff of OKDVA. And comrade. Blucher has repeatedly stated that he is satisfied with my work and believes that Fedko works well. Wasn't it so? All the more, why, for a number of years, have I not received from Comrade Blucher the support on which I could count? I explain this solely by the fact that you very often listened to Sangursky and Lapin. Do you remember the conversation in the car when we were driving after the evening to the dacha of Comrade Voroshilov, when you said to me in the car: “Why are you not listening to Lapin, why Florovsky [18], is your chief of staff not listening to Lapin? " I then stated that, excuse me, this is the first time I have heard a complaint against me from Lapin and Lapin’s complaint against Florovsky. You told me then that Lapin is my old commander, he is in this position ...

Blucher . Not certainly in that way.

Fedko . I will not invent, I always speak the truth. I remember that well. That he is an old commander, that he is being held in the position of assistant commander for the Air Force, that there is such a Gryaznov, about whom you spoke very badly. I will make a special report on this. In any case, everyone will say how comrade Blucher was taken prisoner by this group, how comrade Blucher listened to this bastard, and how this group persecuted me. After all, I have repeatedly written letters to Kliment Efremovich about the situation that has developed. And I found the strength to work only thanks to the attitude and the trust that I met on the part of Kliment Efremovich Voroshilov and Comrade Stalin.

Stalin . Blucher was at knives with Aronshtam. Subsequently, after a series of disasters that he caused, he was at knives with Lapin.

Fedko . This is all true, I cannot throw any accusations against Comrade Blucher, but I say that this group, to a certain extent, was supported in practical work by Comrade Blucher.

Stalin . Did he not notice them?

Fedko . He did not notice them. I believe that Comrade Blucher should come to this rostrum and tell about this group, how she poisoned me, how she put a spoke in my wheels. I expect that another employee of the OKDVA headquarters will also be arrested - this is Dzyza [19] .

Voroshilov . Sangursky was arrested.

Fedko . Then, why is Sangursky awarded the Order of the Red Banner, why is Lapin awarded the Order of the Red Banner, why is he awarded the Order of the Red Banner of Dzyza? Doesn't this testify to Comrade Blucher's attitude to these enemies and wreckers? I emphasize again that I have no evidence to say that Comrade Blucher took any part in this. You need to speak directly. And the fact that he succumbed to their influence, and they very deftly hounded me all the time, hounded me on a whole series of seemingly innocent questions.

Stalin . Aronshtam led the main attack not against you, but against Blucher.

Blucher . Holy simplicity is evident in you, Comrade Fedko.

Fedko . This is all true. I say that Aronshtam was persecuting me. Comrade Stalin, you have not heard the beginning of my speech. What task did Aronshtam set for himself? He hounded Blucher, he hounded me. Comrade Blucher was often absent from the army [20] , and in the hands of this group, in the hands of Aronshtam, all management was. I'm talking about myself.

How did this whole group put a spoke in the wheels? Let's take the attitude towards my work. I have already said how Gamarnik evaluated my work. But he could not go against the current, he could not go against public opinion, and he pursued a certain line to smoke me out of the Primorskaya group in all possible ways. A theory of the following appeared: it is necessary to liquidate the Primorsky group, it is necessary to create corps. This case did not work out. After your instructions, Comrade Stalin ...

Stalin . After the meeting.

Fedko . Yes sir.

Blucher . The hulls are not Gamarnik's business. Gamarnik was against the corps.

Fedko . I'm not talking about Gamarnik.

Stalin . This was Blucher speaking.

Fedko . I will also tell you about Blucher, what point he occupied. They wanted to liquidate the Primorskaya group and create corps. Who was the ideologist of this theory? Lapin and t. Meretskov [21]which is present here. He fiddled with this theory, which I failed when we went to the second maneuvers. You remember, Kliment Efremovich, the attack by Lapin and Meretskov, the attack on me (a number of Council members were present at that time) when they wanted to debunk my work, and only because they met with a resolute rebuff from Kliment Efremovich, their case did not burn out ... What, then, is Meretskov doing? During a break in the meeting of the Military Council, he comes up to me and says: "Listen, go to Vasily Konstantinovich as a deputy." And I ask: "Who is in the Primorskaya group?" "We'll put Lapin." I tell him: “This case will not work. Who gave you the right to offer me this? What are you, People's Commissar, or what? "

Stalin . Every party member can propose. (Laughter.)

Fedko . But now it is absolutely clear where this line was directed: to ensure that I survive from the Primorsky group and put my own man in prison. Further, regarding the opinion of Comrade Blucher on this question. Here, at the National, Comrade Blucher also suggested that I go to him as his deputy. He told me this: "Look, the mice are climbing into the cracks." He considered mice that disorder and that disorder that was created in the headquarters of OKDVA. "We must unite." I told him: "Vasily Konstantinovich, you are the owner, you can unite all people."

Blucher . Everything comes out in its own way, Ivan Fyodorovich.

Fedko . I did not ask you about the Primorsky group. I say what happened, I add nothing. And then you said to me: "Listen, I received a letter from Sangursky, in which he writes that the picadors require bullfights." (Laughter.) You see, Comrade Blucher himself is laughing, and you answered Sangursky with a telegram: "Do not allow bullfighting, stop picadors." (Laughter.) And what is picador translated into Russian? These are said to be bull poisoners. Here he himself laughs: well, what a bull, Sangursky, is against you! (General laughter.)

Voroshilov . So after all, those are picadors, you bull! (General laughter.)

Fedko . Remember, comrade Voroshilov, I sent you a telegram regarding Sangursky, who disrupted the construction? So on this telegram, on this issue, the picadors demanded from Sangursky to give me a fight. Then we got the corresponding answer from Blucher.

Blucher . Right or Wrong?

Fedko . Right. I want to characterize Lapin and Meretskov, who is sitting here. Let him come to the podium and tell me why he offered me to be my deputy, why he offered Lapin to the Primorskaya group.

Blucher . Meretskov does not interfere with going to the podium at all.

Voice from the place . Well-known toady.

Voice from the place . A close friend of Uborevich.

Fedko . What line was the subversive work along? How did I feel when I worked there? Mainly, the work was aimed at disrupting construction. At the construction site sat Kashcheev, now arrested, one of the active Trotskyists. Dzyza was sitting. In the region, he was the head of Dalles von Gerdi ... [22], who turned out to be a spy and a Trotskyist and who supplied the army with timber. Imagine how he supplied the army with timber! Lemberg is the head of the Far Eastern Road, who turned out to be a spy and is now shot. Can you imagine how he brought up this forest! I was forced to fight to the death for the forest, for labor. I have not met any support. On a number of occasions I was forced to send telegrams to Vasily Konstantinovich stating that Kashcheev was not doing something, Dzyza was not providing cars, etc. And in all cases Vasily Konstantinovich took them under protection and always considered me the culprit.

Blucher . Ivan Fedorovich, Comrade Stalin knows, it seems, my note about one hundred thousand cubic meters of forest. This was the answer to his request.

Fedko . Farther. The combat training plan was disrupted. Comrade Blucher was often absent from the army [23] . Combat training plans were drawn up. When you read them, as if everything is in order. But as a system, these combat training plans were thwarted. Take 1935, 1936, and early 1937; generally, 60-70% of planned exercises were not conducted.

Blucher . Ivan Fedorovich, name, please, what doctrine of the army in 1937 you failed?

Fedko . And here is the teaching you canceled.

Blucher . That's right, I canceled the winter maneuvers to which you wanted to withdraw nine unprepared divisions.

Fedko .They were scheduled for March 15, you asked to transfer to the 25th, because could not attend. I said, "Yes." Then you transferred it again, because it was a system of work. I do not remember a single case where even one teaching, one meeting was held on time. There was no such situation. All the people of OKDVA will say this. This is so, you cannot go against facts. And lately I have literally been put in the most difficult situation, and I wrote a report to Comrade Blucher: "I ask you to remove me from the command of the Primorsky group, because it was impossible to continue working." On May 17, I left the Primorsky group, and there was no study plan for the summer period. I was literally attacked by the commanders of corps and divisions: how is it - there are no installations? I couldn't give them any settings. I have already been taught, Vasily Konstantinovich, how you issue orders without me. If I gave an order the next day his order would come in, and I would have to break everything. Was it possible to work in such conditions?

Second. Defeat theory. Lapin fussed with all sorts of defeatist theories, wrote all sorts of reports to Sangursky. Comrade Egorov, can you extract these same defeatist theories from the archives of the General Staff? What were they aimed at? It is precisely to sow confusion in the minds of our command staff, to sow doubts about the basic operational [and] tactical guidelines given by the People's Commissar of Defense, Comrade Voroshilov. And this bastard, I apologize for the expression, phoned Vasily Konstantinovich and tried to attach me to this case in some cases.

Blucher . And, by the way, we went to you for advice.

Fedko . Who was driving? This is not true. You will not find anywhere my visa or my statement on the defeatist theory in the Military Council. You will ask the corps commanders, division commanders, how I taught them about this "mobile defense", about operations in mountain-taiga conditions. They came to me, of course. Meretskov came. Meretskov said that a whole group led by Vasily Konstantinovich Blucher went to Transbaikalia to inspect Comrade Gryaznov. Then they return, and Meretskov declares: "We went to Transbaikalia in order to bring Gryaznov to his knees." Was there such a statement? If he's an honest man, let him come out and say.

Voice . He is not here.

Fedko . What was this system of work? I believe that this group in all its practical work put Comrade Blucher in a position where he believed them more.

Selection of personnel for the commanding staff [24] . After all, I literally had to make a dent before the People's Commissar of Defense in matters of the selection of command personnel. How was this resistance expressed? This resistance was expressed in the fact that all the questions that I raised about the transfer of commanders to one or another division, they were marinated at the headquarters of the OKDVA, and I could advance these questions only with personal reports to the People's Commissar of Defense. It was in 1934, it was in 1935. When I came to Feldman and said that such and such needed to be translated, he answered me: “I can’t do anything to you, the People's Commissar is against fluidity and does not accept me on these issues. I, - he says, - for two months now have not been able to get to the People's Commissar, so go yourself and do the whole thing.

Voroshilov . Who is it?

Fedko . In 1935 I needed a head of the engineering troops ...

Stalin . Who was Feldman?

Fedko . Head of personnel. When he summoned me to military councils, I first reported a whole series of questions about the material condition to him. He refused and I had to report to you. So I remember that the last time was in 1935, now there is no doubt about it, he was foisting his cadres. I needed a chief of the engineering troops, he recommended Goryachev to me and the second one - this is Galuzo. They will need to be checked.

Next, comrades, is the struggle against the Trotskyists. Here one could literally feel the greatest resistance from Aronshtam. Here's a question with Zyuk. When this scoundrel arrived and began to corrupt the division, I repeatedly raised this question before Sangursky, and repeatedly raised the question before Aronshtam. Aronshtam took him under protection and Sangursky also took him under protection. I had to send a telegram to the People's Commissar, where I qualified Zyuk's work as a Trotskyist.

Further, Karklin was such a chief of staff of the 66th division. They kicked him out and could not kick him out. His ticket was taken away, and Aronshtam gave him a ticket again. Further, the commandant was. He was expelled from the party as a Trotskyist, and they reinstate him again. Now he is planted and is testifying about sabotage work in the field of construction. And a whole series of other Trotskyists, enemies who were with us. I remember your directive, Comrade People's Commissar, to drive out any Putnov bastard, and I tried to carry out this directive. When I left, only three of those who worked at Putna remained at the headquarters. But this does not mean that there is no need to further check, because in the light of all events, each person must be approached in a different way. I believe that the same defeat was being prepared in the Far East as in the West, that a tangle was still beginning to unfold there, that the attention of the Japanese General Staff was directed there. This is beyond any doubt. And our whole task is to provide in full the material that we have in our heads, so that Comrade Yezhov could unwind this whole ball. And Comrade Blucher must come to the podium here and speak of his political blindness. I respect Comrade Blucher and have repeatedly given him a Bolshevik assessment as commander of the OKDVA.

Blucher . Have you discussed with Gamarnik the question of Blücher's suitability as a commander?

Fedko . When Gamarnik came for the last time, he called me into his carriage and said: "They say that Blucher does not enjoy authority among the commanding staff, that he conducts his studies poorly and is not quite prepared militarily." I told him directly. Here is my verbatim expression. I called him Yan Borisovich then. I say: “Yan Borisovich, this is not true. Comrade Blucher - and I began to give a full characterization - Comrade Blucher knows the Far East well, China knows him well, he knows how to combine issues of strategy and operational art with political elements, and in this respect I learned a lot from Blucher. I believe that its only drawback is that it works haphazardly, disorganized. " That's all I told him.

Voroshilov . A break is announced for 10 minutes.

Voroshilov (presiding). Comrade has the floor. Dushenov [25] .

Dushenov . There is not the slightest doubt about the fact that the enemy worked on the naval forces. That the roots of the work are deep and not revealed, I also have no doubt about it. We will have to deal with this matter very seriously. It is no coincidence, comrades, that over the course of many years, more than a dozen years, we were headed by notorious Trotskyists, now arrested, and so unceremoniously these people sometimes had work that they completely openly, even in Party organizations, went against people. who supported the party, who fought these Trotskyists.

I will give the most typical examples. For example, Muklevich, he held an entire conference on the Baltic Sea exclusively from the point of view of the struggle against those people who fought against the Trotskyists and against the Zinovievites. It got to the point that the mandates of the elected for this conference were canceled. It got to the point that they re-voted three times at the XIII Party Congress. For example, I was elected three times to the 13th Party Congress and three times Kireev, at the direction of Muklevich, canceled my mandate; and so it was not possible to be at the congress. For example, Kozhanov was chosen from the ship to a party conference in Kronstadt and his mandate was canceled.

Voice . Who!

[ Dushenov .] Kireev at the direction of Muklevich, member of the Revolutionary Military Council, head of the Political Administration. That is, there was such an unceremonious terrible struggle. Here are both Smirnov and Volkov; they know when the party meeting elected three times, and Kireev canceled it.

Voice . Gamarnik was there and created sharp corners.

Dushenov . Yes, Gamarnik was there. And it seems to me that Muklevich was the most seasoned, not Gamarnik, Muklevich was the leader there, in this group. There was a friendship between Muklevich and Gamarnik on naval issues. So, I think, here we have to look very closely behind this case, to unravel this case and clean up who should be.

Voice . And Unshlicht?

Dushenov . And Unshlikht put his hand here, because it was a friend of Muklevich. None of us could get to Unshlikht.

Voice . Not just getting caught, he just stung.

Dushenov . We will take all measures to help the party remember everything, systematize and improve it, so as not to return to them.

Molotov . And again, do not allow.

Dushenov . Again, not allowing is the most important thing. In no way can we say that we are better than those people who also overlooked the whole thing. But Kliment Efremovich will not let me lie.

Voroshilov . You never lie.

Dushenov .Now, Kliment Efremovich, it is a particularly serious moment when the responsibility for every word increases. Do you remember, Kliment Efremovich, when we pulled Muklevich out in [19] 30? We told him directly that he was picking up reactionary people. He picked up all the reactionary people for himself. We became unbearable, we began to put pressure on Gamarnik. He told us: "The Central Committee knows about this." We answered him: "Well, we want to raise this question again, allow me to report." He says, "I can't." Then we began to ask: "Report to the People's Commissar." The next day the people's commissar received us, strongly supported us and strongly encouraged us. And what did Muklevich do? He did not appear at this meeting, and after that he kicked me out of the academy with a bang. Two weeks later, I flew out of the academy. And how did you fly out? There was nothing wrong with me, it seemed to everyone that I was working well, then Duplitsky came. What kind of person is this? He is definitely a cheat.

Voices . Right.

Voice . And generally a bastard.

[ Dushenov .] This was his political unit. And the sooner he is taken, the better it will be - this is how the question should be put. He came to the academy, destroyed the entire academy and helped Muklevich in everything; and Kireev helped Duplitsky, tk. they were afraid that I might not surrender the academy to Duplitsky. Even the meetings were not gathered. They simply told me: "You go away, do not make a noise, otherwise you will get stronger." We were rooting for all this. The People's Commissar saw, I am not toying here, but I must say that the only person who correctly understood this matter was Kliment Efremovich and supported us even where we were afraid that we would be hit hard. After all, they wanted to accuse us of groupism.

Since time is short, let me turn to tactical matters. Lately the German press has been writing about the North all the time. I took excerpts from articles. What they're saying? They say that we have closed the Black Sea, we will not let it through, we won’t let it through the Dardanelles, only North remains. And so they direct all their eyes to the North. There Blomberg writes about this [26] . And what is interesting, Yakir kept twisting a button for me and all the time wanted to go there; he asked me a lot about how to get there, etc.

Voice . And he talked to me about it.

Dushenov . When we sat at a reception for the last time, Yakir twisted a button for me and asked questions.

Voice from the place . So tell us.

Dushenov . I tell you what you think. You were present then and remember that I told you that Blomberg was traveling, about German soldiers, that we were strengthening, becoming stronger, that we would not surrender. I have told and will now tell it. At the party conference, I spoke about this openly. I think it will be necessary to ask Yakir: did he have any assignments in this regard? I ask, Comrade People's Commissar, to pay attention to the mountain regiments. There is a mountain regiment subordinate to me. When I started teaching, it turned out that there was no one to fight with. There are many packs, many horses, we carry packs, barrels, but there are no people.

Voice from the place . Where are the people?

Dushenov . I am not an expert, I don’t know, but apparently this is the organization of mountain regiments. There is no one to fight with. We must reconsider this case. From my point of view, the staffing of the mountain regiment is wrong.

The next question is about the White Sea fortified region. This issue must also be reconsidered. The White Sea fortified area is being built incorrectly, which is especially important for us because we are building a shipbuilding giant on the White Sea, which will be important both for the West and for other places. It is in this light that this White Sea fortified region should be viewed. Now it is being built in such a way that people can pass by. I agreed with you, Comrade People's Commissar, then to build this line of defense, but only if there is a second line of defense in the White Sea area.

The next question is about submarines. I think it is wrong that we were detained for quite a long time in the North Sea and not given the opportunity to go to study with submarines to the German shores. For two years I have been proving that it is necessary to go with submarines to the North Sea, to the only German communications; the Germans mean this wet triangle of Helgoland. They kept us all the time. Now submarines are sailing along the canal, but these are not the kind of boats that I could be actively using there. And the Germans know this and write that this is their most painful place, that is where the Russians can prevent them. Submarines "German" should be sent there [27] . By the way, allow me, Comrade People's Commissar, to eliminate this word - "German women".

Voroshilov . Not in this case.

Dushenov . This is not the point, but they figure with us, and we only tease people that the Germans are good, but we are bad. This aspect of the matter must also be reconsidered. It seems to me that this will be an absolutely correct event. I also ask you to reconsider the question of mountain shelves; in any case, I have to reconsider this issue. Then, the question of submarines and the question of the White Sea fortified area. I have a perfectly accurate understanding of these issues and can report them at any time.

The last question is about aviation. Comrade People's Commissar, comrades members of the Military Council, the Germans are systematically strengthening themselves all the time, building airfields there all the time; even the Finns - hicks, if I may say so - have set up more airfields than we do. I want to tell Comrade Tkachev, who still does not want to lead the line there. He believes that in Leningrad he is not given an airfield, in Leningrad there is little water. We have as much water as you want. Come to us, we will welcome you with open arms, but you, Comrade Tkachev, do not want to establish this line. Please install.

Tkachev . There was an attempt last year.

Dushenov . Last year there was an attempt, but they still do nothing, for some reason they do not want to build airfields. Give us aviation, at least a squadron, we are not asking for much. I think that com. Alksnis and Bergström now need to tackle this business. I do not understand why Comrade Khrulev has a bad attitude towards aviation from a construction point of view: every penny and penny needs to be drawn out. I think that we will receive funds to create aviation. I believe that we must root out the remnants of Trotskyism and all [that] sabotage that exists, we have all the opportunities for this.

As for the Red Navy men, as for our young cadres of submariners, they are very good people, and if you work with them correctly, they will do wonders for the line of the Central Committee, for our leadership, for the Politburo.

Molotov . You have to understand what you can talk about and what you can't talk about. Why did you talk about the submarine line? What is it for? You acted not as a military man, but simply as an agitator, a little chatterbox, to be honest.

Dushenov . Allow me to report Comrade People's Commissar ...

Voroshilov . “Allow me to report” - and immediately start saying what you don’t need.

Voroshilov . Comrade Khrulev. 10 minutes.

Khrulev .Comrades, the sabotage that has engulfed the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army has embraced our construction to a large extent. After the plenum of the Central Committee, after our eyes had been opened, we began to really check the state of our construction; and as a result of this test, we uncovered an extremely difficult picture and ultimately got to the roots of this dire situation. The roots of this grave situation are undoubtedly rooted in sabotage. Not in the sabotage of individual engineers, but in organized sabotage - at the headquarters of the Red Army Construction Directorate. Moreover, not so long ago we managed to establish that such people as chief engineer Pavlov, Saravaisky, head of the Military Design Directorate Zhukovsky and a number of other engineers were involved in the sabotage activities of the Construction Department.

Voice . I told you about Pavlov earlier.

Khrulev . Efim Afanasyevich, you told me, but for this you had to really grasp the roots. When this case was dug up and caught red-handed, then it became clear to me that he was a pest. True, I raised a question with Gamarnik that I considered it impossible to work with Pavlov, and asked to replace the chief engineer. Gamarnik then stated that he considered it wrong, because Pavlov has been with the Office for a very long time and knows the job very well, and you will fail without him.

Wrecking swept, Vasily Konstantinovich, especially the construction of the Far East. From the data we have here, how is it expressed? It translates into design lag. One option is better than the other. They tried to postpone construction until the fall. The sabotage consisted in choosing a site, in relocating from one place to another. Lapin did this so skillfully that, in fact, today in the Far East we do not have a single truly equipped airfield with all the cultural and living conditions for aviation workers. We have direct sabotage in the choice of an aviation site here, too, in the European part of the Union. This is Tolmachevo, where everything is done in such a way that now it is cracking and it is necessary to rebuild, because the site was selected on a wooded [28]soil. We have a wrecking site in Chelyabinsk. Now I have signals that we have a wreckingly chosen airfield in Ukraine. It seems to be near Konotop. In addition, the artillery warehouses built in 1936, the so-called semi-underground warehouses, all turned out to be completely unusable, because they are all flooded with water. As far back as last year, I raised the question of who gives such decisions on the construction of semi-underground warehouses without taking appropriate measures to resolve technical issues, i.e. to concreting, impermeability, etc. etc. They say that it was Yakir who suggested that groundwater in Ukraine is not so high that there is no danger. And although Yakir made excuses that this is the only case that he knows and all of Ukraine knows, that the waters this year in Ukraine rose very high, now we see that this was done solely with a sabotage purpose. Among other things, it was believed that such field advanced warehouses with a capacity of 200-250 wagons should not have access roads. I ask who solved these issues. They tried to answer me that it was a special directive from the General Staff. There was no directive. They tried to prove to me that it was an agreed solution. True, I found one document of the meeting of the Tukhachevsky commission on this issue, where it was said: it is possible and not. And construction from this concluded that it was not necessary. And it turns out that if there are no access roads to this warehouse, then we will deliver a huge amount of ammunition, but we will not be able to use them. Among other things, it was believed that such field advanced warehouses with a capacity of 200-250 wagons should not have access roads. I ask who solved these issues. They tried to answer me that it was a special directive from the General Staff. There was no directive. They tried to prove to me that it was an agreed solution. True, I found one document of the meeting of the Tukhachevsky commission on this issue, where it was said: it is possible and not. And construction from this concluded that it was not necessary. And it turns out that if there are no access roads to this warehouse, then we will deliver a huge amount of ammunition, but we will not be able to use them. Among other things, it was believed that such field advanced warehouses with a capacity of 200-250 wagons should not have access roads. I ask who solved these issues. They tried to answer me that it was a special directive from the General Staff. There was no directive. They tried to prove to me that it was an agreed solution. True, I found one document of the meeting of the Tukhachevsky commission on this issue, where it was said: it is possible and not. And construction from this concluded that it was not necessary. And it turns out that if there are no access roads to this warehouse, then we will deliver a huge amount of ammunition, but we will not be able to use them. that it was a special directive from the General Staff. There was no directive. They tried to prove to me that it was an agreed solution. True, I found one document of the meeting of the Tukhachevsky commission on this issue, where it was said: it is possible and not. And construction from this concluded that it was not necessary. And it turns out that if there are no access roads to this warehouse, then we will deliver a huge amount of ammunition, but we will not be able to use them. that it was a special directive from the General Staff. There was no directive. They tried to prove to me that it was an agreed solution. True, I found one document of the meeting of the Tukhachevsky commission on this issue, where it was said: it is possible and not. And construction from this concluded that it was not necessary. And it turns out that if there are no access roads to this warehouse, then we will deliver a huge amount of ammunition, but we will not be able to use them.

What are we doing now? We are now reviewing all projects in a radical way. We need to review the entire stock from top to bottom. We need to draw good people out and put them to great work. And keep in mind: we have a huge number of engineers working in the Red Army Construction Department. A total of 11.5 thousand technicians and engineers.

Blucher . You have 50% of engineers in OKDVA.

Khrulev . That's right, 50% of engineers are in OKDVA. And so I appeal to you.

Blucher . Your information is clearly wrong. Firstly, we do not have 5 thousand engineers, and secondly, less than 50%.

Khrulev . You have a lot of engineers in your construction battalion, you have a lot of engineers in the areas. And you should not ask, but give us for European construction, because European construction is now no less infected than the Far East.

Blucher . I think it's still less.

Khrulev . I think these people need to be found. We have a total of 400 construction sites. Can't we find 400 site managers? We have 14 building districts departments.

Can't we find the 14 district chiefs? Of course you can. For example, Gryaznov says that it is necessary to change his construction managers. Right. I agree that he needs to be replaced, and I suspect him of sabotage. But you know, I'm a new person, I don't know the staff well enough. However, I strive to find out the personnel.

Stalin . How about the chemical landfill in Saratov?

Khrulev . The chemical landfill in Saratov is difficult. And let me say, I was the first to raise this question and reported to the People's Commissar that the biggest sabotage that I saw was in organizing the construction of the landfill in Saratov. Today the situation is the same there.

Stalin . Are you to blame for this?

Khrulev . Not at all. I have been working for 8 months in total.

Stalin . This is not so small.

Khrulev .I kept punching gaps, and during these 8 months 3 commissions were appointed: one commission chaired by Levichev; the second is chaired by Stepanov, head of the Chemical Department. We worked out the appropriate proposals, which were given to Marshal Comrade Yegorov, and by decision of Marshal Comrade Yegorov, the Chief of the General Staff, Shaposhnikov, will apparently go to solve the issue. Construction has been going on since 1930. All construction was carried out in the most vile manner. The houses were built of the Leningrad type, which are now falling apart. There is no real organization of service at the training ground, which could characterize a large research training ground, which it is for our Red Army. They need to take measures now to fix this matter. This matter, Comrade Stalin, can be rectified at low cost to the state. But it is necessary to get a final decision on what chemists want from this landfill, because Until now, many times Fishman was not asked: "What do you want from the landfill?" - he could not say what he wants from the landfill.

Stalin . And why does the General Staff exist? He needs to know.

Khrulev . As a result of all this, I went to the General Staff, I went to see Comrade Yegorov, and now appropriate measures are being taken.

Stalin . But there is, for example, a part of construction that any peasant could build humanly; and this is being built ugly: some barracks, houses, something that does not need any plan - it is being built ugly. This also applies to you.

Khrulev . This concerns me. Comrade Stalin, this year, with the permission of the People's Commissar and according to the relevant directives, I organized a special group of engineers who drive around and check the quality of work. As soon as it turns out that people are unable to carry out a real high-quality construction, we either remove them or reduce them. But I cannot tell you that everything is fine with us ...

Stalin . I have a question for you, Comrade Khrulev, what is your practice and attitude - everything is decided in Moscow? Are there any rights granted to counties? After all, you understand that nothing can be built in the districts without the help of local forces.

Khrulev . I am reporting to you what order exists; I did not establish this order. Establishes the center, say, for 1937 2–1.5 billion rubles. for construction this year. On the basis of this control figure, control figures for the districts are compiled, the People's Commissar approves them, and they are sent to the districts. The counties use these figures to make plans.

Stalin . Who plans the objects?

Khrulev . They plan objects, they choose the sites.

Stalin . Who develops the master plan?

Khrulev . And they develop a general plan.

Voice . And the project?

Khrulev . We have standard projects. Based on the order of the People's Commissar of February 11 on typification, we have standard designs only for barracks, for example. There is a sample design for a very nice simple barracks. Why design it for each district separately? We have standard projects for houses with 24 apartments and 32 apartments. All these standard projects have been worked out, we have material for them, all the documentation, and they do not need to be designed in every district. But we have a number of works on which the district itself makes projects: plumbing, sewer, electric lighting and transport, i.e. on work related to the improvement and cultural condition of the towns. All of this is under the jurisdiction of the districts.

Voice . Right.

Voice . Comrade People's Commissar, I want to ask you one question. Premises for aerodrome offices are designed in a sabotage manner. There are headquarters and classes - all together, there is Sodom and Gomor. No secrecy can be guaranteed there. And now in Alsufyevo, in the 5th brigade, when I wanted to make a proposal that the headquarters should be separated from the classes separately, in order to observe the possibility of staff work, the builders refused me.

Khrulev . For airfields, for buildings of airfield administrations, there are no standard projects at all, and we are now only working on these standard projects. What is available in this regard now? In Lyubertsy there are one type of aerodrome control buildings, in Lyubertsy - one solution, in Monino - another solution. Now there is no standard project.

Voice . Well, what are you saying, there is a typical project, only different sizes.

Khrulev . We do not have a standard design for the aerodrome control building.

Voice . You interpret formally, not on the merits.

Khrulev . In essence, I report to you that these issues are entirely in the districts.

Voice . Wrong.

Khrulev . All construction on non-standard projects is carried out only by the districts.

Voice . Wrong.

Voroshilov . Of course it is.

Voice . There are two types approved by the SKU RKKA. I then demanded an alteration on the spot. They say: "You can't." There are standard designs approved by you; they go to the Far East and go everywhere.

Khrulev . Thus, I report to you that we are fighting a fierce struggle for quality.

Stalin . Can not see.

Khrulev .Comrade Stalin, this year I toured a number of buildings and I must say that the quality is improving, but it is necessary that the commanders of the districts do not deviate from this matter. Nowhere, in any position, it is not said that the construction bodies and all construction are subordinate to me. On the contrary, take the regulation approved by the government on the bodies of district administrations. It says that construction and all other issues are under the jurisdiction of the commanders of the troops. When the commanders of the troops, with my persistence, discovered that the construction was in a dire state, that there was sabotage, that there were a lot of cost overruns, the loss of materials, crime was raging, etc., the commanders of the troops wanted to blame this case on me. And I ask you to be guided by the provisions that are approved by the government and which say about the district administration bodies; About, that they are fully responsible for the construction. I believe that you are making absolutely correct claims to us and you are scolding us correctly. But keep in mind that last year (for last year I cannot answer, because I did not work on construction) there were no projects, no estimates, no general plans worked out.

Tyulenev . But you were a member of the Bureau.

Khrulev . Yes, there was, comrade Tyulenev. But it goes without saying that now all this can be corrected at once and cannot be given on time. We can only say that today all our construction is provided with projects and estimates by 85%.

Dybenko . Complex.

Khrulev . Complex again! As far as the Building Authority is concerned, this is one thing, and the external work that you are obliged to do ...

Dybenko . You give a project for a box, but there is no electric lighting, no heating.

Khrulev . The building has electric lighting, steam or stove heating. In short, everything that is supposed to be. But where are we in a catastrophic situation? I want you to listen, Comrade Stalin.

Stalin . I'm listening.

Khrulev . We have the most difficult situation with electric lighting, with the power grid. For several years in a row, these questions somehow did not find reflection. Thus, we set up the towns, but did not give light. To date, everything is built almost on temporary huts, and such wires that you can expect a fire at any moment.

Stalin . And we give billions for this business.

Khrulev . I understand, Comrade Stalin. We went to Comrade Molotov several times and asked for help with diesel engines, cables, wires and other electrical fittings.

Molotov . We helped.

Khrulev . They helped, Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, but not enough. I understand your plight too. You have not one army, but the entire national economy demands. But nevertheless, we should have helped in this regard, because we are ...

Molotov . Build well.

Stalin . You get money, all the materials are delivered to you, but build is bad.

Khrulev . Allow me to report on the situation with the materials. We were to be given 900 thousand cubic meters of timber in the first half of the year. The first half of the year is almost over - the month of June, and we received only 450 thousand cubic meters.

Stalin . Is there a guarantee that these 450 thousand cubic meters will be used humanly?

Khrulev . All construction today is due to the forest. If we received timber in April, in May ... We talked about this to Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, he called Ivanov and asked when he would give timber and when he would stop deceiving the government. Ivanov promised, but gives nothing. If we had given wood in April, if we had given wood in May, we would have yielded significantly greater results in terms of both quantity and quality.

The situation with local materials is incredibly difficult this year. Both in Moscow and in Leningrad, the situation with housing construction is very difficult, especially with the construction of the academy: they need to do a set, but there are no apartments. We needed to receive 15 million bricks for May, and 20 million for June. We received 800 thousand for May and 2 million for June. Where can we move forward with so many bricks?

Throughout Leningrad. Comrade Voroshilov wrote to Comrade Zhdanov that the situation with the brick was catastrophic. Comrade Voroshilov traveled to Leningrad on air defense issues. There are construction projects that need to be completed at all costs this year - to deploy anti-aircraft artillery. It is not possible to finish them, because Comrade Zhdanov did not give a brick. Instead of 20 million bricks for June, we were guaranteed a firm guarantee of 5 million. Of course, our competitors are very respectable organizations, such as the People's Commissariat of the Defense Industry. This business is such that you will not particularly shout that they give him, but they do not give us. It is just as important to give to him as to us. It seems to me that something amiss has happened in the Moscow and Leningrad regions with a brick. Last year the situation was better with both bricks and timber.

Here Comrade Bulin spoke: Uborevich said that when Levenzon was at the construction site, it was better, Khrulev came to the construction site - it was no longer good for the devil. I cannot accept such a reproach. I have to say where I came to. I came to the conclusion that last year the plan was drawn up in violation of a government decree. Levenzon himself, without any report to the People's Commissar, made an excess of 535 million. When I arrived, I found there a grave legacy - construction literally sits without money, the material implementation of the program is extremely low. Well, they liked Levenson because they came to him and did what they wanted.

Molotov . We have not heard of this, Comrade Khrulev, that the plan was worth 500 million rubles. more. The first time I've heard.

Khrulev . I went to Valery Ivanovich Mezhlauk and said: "How to be?" He says...

Molotov . How can this be 500 thousand [29] more?

Khrulev . I can give help with docs.

Voice . Who sent Levenzon to us?

Khrulev . Not me.

Voroshilov . He himself did not go, we sent him.

Voice . Gamarnik?

Voroshilov . Well, of course.

Khrulev .Comrade Stalin, I think that we will rectify this difficult situation in construction, but we still have a lot to root out wrecking elements. Not all of them have been uprooted yet. Here I must tell you that both the NKVD and Nikolai Ivanovich Yezhov are helping us in this matter. Moreover, our construction was undertaken earlier than for anything else. But not everything harmful in construction has been rooted out. I think that we will uproot all this and organize the work of construction properly. But, I repeat, Comrade Stalin, if the commanders of the troops understand that they have an equal responsibility for this matter. And today it was so. Take, for example, Belarus. Uborevich has everything related to the infantry, everything is provided, and everything related to aviation, he does not want to provide. Here are how many times Alksnis and I spoke. I spoke to Gamarnik dozens of times, what the devil knows what is: everything related to aviation, with the preservation of its property, everything is done in the last turn; and everything connected with the infantry, he strongly forced it. I think that the commanders of the troops know the importance of aviation, they know the importance of preserving its materiel.

Budyonny . Aviation, tanks, cavalry - all of this last, the first echelon.

Khrulev . We need to cover all the planes by all means. Comrade Stalin, I would like to tell you about this hangar that was built. Here Comrade Khripin in vain refuses that he did not have a hand in this matter. Here it was necessary to tell him directly that he was mistaken. And to say that he didn't put his hand is wrong. The scheme was given to him; It is written in the hand of Comrade Khripin that he considers this hangar to be the best for operation. Comrade Stalin, let’s say that I was wrong, but when I looked at the hangar last year, in November, I said: "We will not build this hangar anymore until I talk to the People's Commissar." I assigned this to my aviation assistant, Comrade Gorshkov. Comrade Gorshkov told me that Alksnis did not agree with the cancellation of the construction of this hangar.

Alksnis . (The replica is not captured.)

Khrulev . Yakov Ivanovich, then I told you myself that I ask you to write a joint note to the People's Commissar in order to cancel this hangar. I understand that this hangar had to be completed, but, of course, with a special consideration of all the construction details, it could be used in order not to ruin the invested 20 million rubles. public money. And we will bring these hangars to the end. They are so interestingly built that they collect snow. The roof is made in such a way that if there is a lot of snow, then it can sink, the farm is overloaded, and there can be an accident.

Voice . Right.

Voice . It is your Gorshkov who conducts everything.

Khrulev . Measures are now being taken to save the people's money invested.

Molotov . Where are these hangars built?

Khrulev . This is in all districts. There are only 200 such hangars being built. We, comrade. Stalin, as a result of the incredible bedlam and sabotage that was organized during the construction, and now I understand that this business was inspired by both Yakir and Gamarnik ...

Stalin . What to blame on the dead? And we are alive!

Khrulev . I say that I flapped. I could have seen before. I was the head of the Finance Department.

Stalin . Is pots good or bad?

Khrulev . Gorshkov needs to be checked.

Dybenko . I want to say about Gorshkov. A hangar was built in the Orenburg school. Instead of building the Orenburg barracks and airfield, the workshop was built with roofs instead in 1931. The workshop cannot remove these roofs. Instead of building a school, Gorshkov says that a barracks should be built.

Khrulev . I do not need pots, and we will replace him, if only Comrade Alksnis gives a good worker.

Voice . The harmful construction in Smolensk, which had not been accepted for a number of years, Uborevich forced to accept this gas storage, and now there is a gasoline leak. There is also wrecking construction in Alsufyevo.

Khrulev . Since the question arose about the gasoline engine, let me tell you. Here it is necessary to reconsider not only the builders, but also the airmen. You have a note on this matter. I argue that the petrol distribution network that has been built at most airfields is not working. This is a sabotage business. Moreover, a huge amount of people's money was driven into the ground. This is where the gas tanks are carried somewhere, and then they are piped around the airfield.

Voice . And the water supply is wreckingly constructed. Water is supplied at a distance of 300-400 meters, while it reaches, it is already cooled. This is a wrecking system that is unacceptable. If these funds were to be spent on crawler-mounted water and oil tankers, we would provide a water filling station. What happens? We cannot install oil / water tankers because they are not tracked. This is an outrage, Comrade Stalin.

Khrulev . We are with comrade. Blucher, since he did not have this, solved the problem in a simpler way.

Molotov . How about the stoves?

Blucher . By the way, everyone has good stoves.

Molotov . Uborevich did not work well because he is a pest. Why didn't the others look?

Voice . This applies to everyone. Overlooked. They had the opportunity to report to the People's Commissar and the government and did not report.

Khrulev . The gas distribution network cannot supply gasoline without a filter. And there is no filter - they don't do it anywhere. No matter how much the industry is struggling with the device of this filter, nothing has been done so far. This year Comrade Alksnis and I agreed not to build this gas distribution network. But I question what was built in the past, into which a huge amount of money was laid.

Voice . And what about Gorshkov?

Khrulev . I think that Gorshkov should be checked; I have no doubt that it cannot be left in the Construction Department. But I think we need to check someone in the Air Force too.

Voices . Right.

Voice . And the headquarters was moldy.

[ Khrulev .] Keep in mind that Gorshkov does everything so skillfully that he has a resolution from his boss on every document: either Khripin or Lavrov. And even in ourags [30] not everything is so well. I think, Comrade Stalin, that with the help of the Central Committee of the Party, with your personal assistance, which you always render to the Red Army, we will straighten this matter in construction. Vyacheslav Mikhailovich, about stoves. Overlooked. Criminally, shamefully overlooked. Moreover, the projects were checked, the projects were accepted as correct, but the execution of these projects, and butt to the tree, and everything else was carried out downright sabotage. I think that with the help of the Central Committee of the Party we will be able to get out of the difficult situation in which we are now.

Voroshilov . Comrade Shaposhnikov has the floor.

Shaposhnikov . Comrades, the vile, treacherous clique that has now been exposed has, of course, done a lot of harm to the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army, and we must here welcome the fact that it was opened in time, when it had not yet come to an armed conflict.

Voice . He wouldn't have been.

Shaposhnikov . I, comrades, as the former commander of the Leningrad Military District, must say that the reproach that was made here by our leader Comrade Stalin and People's Commissar Comrade Voroshilov, that we overlooked this matter, is profoundly correct. We, the commanders, signaled very little, wrote reports, but I must say bluntly: we wrote reports that were toothless. In my practice, I wrote reports on air defense, wrote reports on aviation and armored forces, but the reports were toothless. It was necessary to persistently seek their implementation.

Voroshilov .Most of all, Boris Mikhailovich, you need to work on your own, because if you think to correct the matter with reports, replies, then you are mistaken. Never a damn thing will work. Honestly, just listening is disgusting. How can we in Moscow see from here behind everything that is happening in Leningrad or in the Far East? You just wonder how you do not see in yourself such shortcomings that hit right in the nose. You come, you see - one disgrace is done, you see - another disgrace is being done, but you do not see. Then I will have the opportunity to speak here and tell you a couple of warm words as you perform here. Innocent critics! You did everything there with your own hands, what clever people were found! It turns out this way: there was one idiot sitting here, and there all around were honest, intelligent people, and here, with a twink of an eye, he did everything and carried out his sabotage plans. Where the hell are you going

Shaposhnikov . In this respect, we overlooked. I must say that I, as the commander of the Volga District, and then the Leningrad District, reached out for the advanced districts and did not understand why this was happening: you try, it seems that the units are not bad, but the work does not work out.

Voroshilov . They hoped for paper.

Shaposhnikov .True, they hoped a lot for paper. I gave the directive and believed that it was being implemented. Forgotten a good guideline that this directive needs to be checked and monitored thirty times. From my practice at the Military Academy, I must say that in 1934 I withstood the first Trotskyist raid on teaching methods at the Military Academy. I then reported on this to the People's Commissar, and the People's Commissar, according to my report, corrected a lot. These attacks came from Primakov, who persistently wanted to introduce his people. In particular, after serving his sentence, Troitsky appeared with an order to take him head of the department of military geography to the Military Academy. I refused. He appears for the second time, again with a prescription - I don't remember - either signed by Primakov or by Feldman. I also refused. I think now they will act through the People's Commissar. No, it wasn't. That's how they got their people in. In particular, take Krasilnikov from the 1st Directorate of the Red Army Headquarters, who was sent to the Military Academy. Efim Afanasyevich and I protested against this. What to do with it? To the department of history? Certainly not on the history of the Civil War, and they put him to teach World War.

Voice from the place . And when he was kicked out of the party, he again tried to recover.

Shaposhnikov . When I arrived in Leningrad at the end of 1935 ...

Voice from the place . You'd better tell us about Sedyakin and his role in this matter.

Shaposhnikov . Everything came from the Combat Training Directorate. This is clear to everyone.

Voice from the place . No, this is very important. With Primakov, this was one line.

Shaposhnikov . When I arrived in Leningrad, Primakov was assistant to the commander of the troops. I must say that Primakov carried out all my instructions, as he was dealing with air defense issues. I myself dealt with aviation issues. Then he left to write regulations, wrote regulations for two months, was absent from various war games for a month and a half, and in July was arrested. I must say that he checked the air defense, but I didn't check how he carried out this check. This, of course, is my fault. I trusted this man too much. I see it works. If a year ago he confronted me, now he listens to me, carries out orders, offers new means of air defense, thinks about these issues, pushes them. In this respect, I trusted him.

When Primakov was still there, an order appeared to appoint Germanovich as an army inspector. I can't say anything bad about him either. He carried out all the tasks assigned to him, was engaged in the army inspection, tried to instruct units, and presented reports. I cannot say that the reports were not efficient. We also had another employee, such as Colonel Kachanov, an operative from the first department ...

Voice . Didn't know where Spain was located.

Shaposhnikov . Kachanov? I can't report. But from the party side, he did not raise any doubts, and now he fell as an enemy of the people. And in this respect, I really must say that in such a proletarian center as Leningrad - I am ashamed to look Kliment Efremovich in the eye - they missed this case. I believe that now we need to vigorously check all the channels through which the sabotage work took place. Already from the speeches of previous comrades, these channels were outlined. From the testimony we know, and here Comrade People's Commissar Marshal of the Soviet Union is correct [v. Voroshilov] pointed out that one cannot hope that only Kliment Efremovich will correct and straighten the whole matter if we do not take up this matter ourselves. This must be tackled vigorously and urgently.

I must report, Kliment Efremovich, that, despite the fact that there were such saboteurs and spies in the Leningrad Military District, the units of the Leningrad Military District in their bulk - both the middle and senior commanders, and the high command personnel - are strong units, who will do everything that the Lenin-Stalin party, the government and you, Comrade People's Commissar, will entrust them.

Voroshilov . Comrade Sandpiper.

Kulik .Comrades, I'll start with myself. For some reason, Efimov mentioned my name in his testimony, but you, comrades, know that since 1918 I fought against Trotsky under the direct leadership of Clement Efremovich and Comrade Stalin. And as Trotsky was filming Kliment Efremovich, instantly I flew. At that time I wore a beard, and Trotsky said: "This beard must be removed." When I was wounded near Tsaritsyn, - I can honestly say - I was afraid to go through Moscow, I thought that I would be shot. And now Efimov mentioned my last name, and when they asked me, I did not believe it right away. I think this is a provocation. Efimov's testimony, what we read, and what I discover is no-no-no. It leads to the wrong place. I can report, Comrade Molotov, that the enemies acted in such a way that every question has your visa and your resolution. Every little thing, almost every screw was brought into the service station.

Molotov . Who contributed?

Kulik . AU [31]... So here from the formal point of view, everything was done, I myself looked through. If they had come to me, I do not know what would have happened. Unfortunately, when I looked through what happens with heavy artillery. According to the specifications of the factories, they stopped production of 28-inch howitzers and 6-inch ones. They took heavy artillery and eliminated the production of shells. And under the guise of specification, everything is fine. What does it mean now? Howitzers have been produced at the Perm plant for more than 20 years, and now they have been transferred to a new plant, where there is an empty space. What does it mean? But, Alexander Ilyich, I looked who was sitting there, in the 5th section. It seems that all 100% do not work. Those who were sitting in the 5th section should be hanged. Now hang up, without any. And the difficult thing is that it seems like nonsense. True, I honestly say, I got a promotion after 7 years - to come to GAU. I understand, that to come to the GAU is a very difficult question. I refused.

Molotov . Refused.

Kulik . But when the comrades opened it to me, I did not have the Bolshevik conscience to refuse ...

Molotov . This is correct.

Kulik . It would be bad if another commander of the troops had been put in prison. I am a little familiar with GAU. Here, comrades, VET is horror. There are no shells, and the F-22 cannon, I will report to you, Comrade Molotov, tomorrow. Everything is so confusing. And it turns out that everything is in order and everywhere there is a resolution of the Council of Labor and Defense, Comrade Bazilevich.

Molotov . We can say that there were honest people who knew about this, but they did not help us. Wasn't it the same?

Kulik . Comrade People's Commissar, cannon No. 2 is not the same as No. 1 .

Voroshilov . We all know this very well.

Kulik . What does it mean to lower the angle of fire by 0.7 mm? This means a new gun. I think this issue is very serious and we need to work on it. I would ask you to see all our ammunition for real.

Voroshilov . Do not ask, but look.

Kulik . No, I ask the commanders of the troops to pay attention to the ammunition, to the maintenance of the materiel and to the knowledge of the materiel by the command staff. We know the material part very poorly, from the machine gun to the artillery. We get almost 20% of the worthlessness per year. I commanded the Moscow military district for about five years. All my division commanders and my pompolite Govorukhin are here. And you know, Cork was in command, his deputy. - Gorbachev, Chief of Staff - Stepanov. There was Veklichev [32] - a scoundrel. I think this is a rogue, a scoundrel.

Voices . Right.

Kulik .I, comrades, declare right here: let Govorukhin come out here and say how he treated Veklichev. They took me to Gamarnik, and with Gamarnik, comrades, if it were in the Civil War! Why did he hate me ?! It was a political feud. It was the enemy. I spoke to you, Klimenty Efremovich, a hundred times about him. Moreover, when the question was raised about your deputies - about Gamarnik, Yakir and Uborevich - I reported to you all the time, because I felt that the main blow was on me, because I was carrying out the instructions of the People's Commissar. Here Comrade Dybenko can confirm. You know, Comrade Molotov, when Pavlunovsky examined the AU, I was saved by Comrade Stalin. Why did Pavlunovsky put the question like that? He sat on the war industry. I now have a doubt, how could it have happened that Pavlunovsky allowed this? He was a military man. Now there is no artillery production, and before a year we will not get anything. The entire system for the specification of the production of heavy artillery was incorrect. When I left, an order was given for one million shells of 48 and 122. And today the stock is 0. Seventy thousand experiments have been carried out, and the stock is zero. I believe that the most vulnerable point is along the line of the Artillery Directorate. Comrade Stalin, I was really scared.

Stalin . Don't be afraid.

Kulik . I'm not a cowardly person.

Stalin . Things were not turned upside down.

Kulik . I want to say about the Moscow District. I was in captivity. Mikhalin is sitting here. Tell me, why did Veklichev eat him? And Govorukhin helped him. Come out and say: for what?

Govorukhin . Not true.

Kulik . True. Which line did you draw?

Govorukhin . This is totally wrong.

Kulik . You said: "You are a partisan, but we will not allow you to command." Veklichev did not allow this to be carried out. As a Bolshevik, tell me why you persecuted the best Bolshevik Mikhalin, why did you summon him to your office and say: "You are a good man, but we will not allow you to command." He has been a member of the party since 1917, an excellent Bolshevik, and they began to persecute him for trifles.

Comrade Stalin, you do not understand my position. When Bedov arrived, I sighed. Comrade Stalin, I had to work underground. I can lead, but they tell me: "Sorry." They have favorites. I am 16 years old in one category. Tell me, comrades, to be honest, they are sitting here: one is the commander of the army, the other is the commander of the army, the third is the commander of the army. Why was I being overwritten? How did I graduate from the academy, was it reported to you, Kliment Efremovich? And this is because Gamarnik reported. That is why I did not tell Comrade Yezhov when I was summoned, because I did not know Yezhov by sight. And when the question was raised about all this, I wrote you an official report, the People's Commissar. How were people nominated? Here is the same Turovsky, Garkavy - this is nothing in military affairs. What are they, at least the same Garkavy?

Stalin . There is nothing but a mustache.

Kulik . And Turovsky? And whoever protects Uborevich here, let him say what a coward he is: I've been in battle with him, he is a coward.

Voices . Right.

[ Kulik .] But cowards in the army cannot command. I remember when I was at Budyonny's, when Trotsky took me off, and Ordzhonikidze, who had arrived, reinstated me, when I commanded an army near Cor ... [33] , so he escaped. This is such a nonentity.

Voice . It's right. He is a great coward.

[ Kulik .] And Yakir? This is such a bastard. After all, comrades commanders, we knew very well that Yakir was capturing everything, that there was no such place where Yakir's people were not placed. We are the Military Council, we are responsible for the army, we must go out stubbornly and say honestly: who to what extent was connected with Yakir. Here is Comrade Dubovoy, you and I are old men (?) [34] , but no. (Laughter.) You remember that we were simply afraid of this bastard with you. After all, I spoke with all the commanders, we all talked to each other, and recognized everything, and you, Comrade Dubovoy, be aware that you played a certain role here. Let's be honest. And you, assistant to the commander of the troops, Comrade Fesenko, must say.

Fesenko . I will tell.

Kulik . Therefore, as a Bolshevik, I ask and demand that people come out here and say to what extent they are involved. See how the forces were placed. I never went to Gamarnik. Then, when Govorukhin was summoned, how did they want to present the case? I drank wine and brought a woman, so they wanted to compromise me so (laughter) ... Not in that sense. They said that I was a mediocre person. Well, there is some kind of unterishka, fireworks! Uborevich called me a fireworks. And the Ukrainian "leader" Yakir never shook hands. When Belov conducted a teaching last year in the fall, they all came running to discredit this teaching.

Voice from the place . And how they howled!

Kulik .And how they howled! Is this permissible in the Bolshevik Red Army? After all, they all fled to discredit Belov. I was wrong about Gorbachev, he played a provocative role. At first I considered him my man. After all, we must say frankly that militarily he is incompetent. I helped him because I did not see what he was. Here are my divisional commanders, they know that when he was doing the analysis, it was like an anecdote. And during the maneuvers, I gave him a real shot. How did Tukhachevsky perform then! How Yakir and Uborevich whispered and what a vile position Veklichev took! The commander of the troops took a vile, treacherous position. But I report to you that I did not allow any of the hostile people into the 3rd Rifle Corps; maybe there were some people. I believe the 3rd Rifle Corps is not as clogged up as the others,

I want to ask this question, Comrade Stalin. What were these scoundrels hoping for? After all, I would have hung with my own hands, would not have allowed them. We all - Efim, Semyon Mikhailovich, Dybenko, Lewandovsky - knew, and I personally considered Gamarnik the biggest bastard. I considered him an enemy, he could not look me in the eyes. Cork is generally a fool in military affairs.

Voice from the place . Suppose he's not a fool.

Kulik . No, Cork is an illiterate person in military affairs, he does not know technology.

Budyonny . He only knew how to ask questions.

Kulik . At first I considered him a sensible person, but then I realized what he was. No direction or clarification has ever been received. I exchanged opinions with division commanders, sent them to other divisions, where training is better, and our commander was zero. Kork, together with Veklichev, did not give me a single instruction or explanation for 3.5 months. But as soon as I made any mistake - and this, of course, did take place - they instantly inflated this case.

Voice from the place . And now to the People's Commissar.

Kulik . The commander of the troops was a bastard, deputy. on the political side - a bastard, the chief of staff - a bastard. Here's a job! Chief of Staff of the Moscow District Stepanov is a bastard.

Voice . He arrived from the Primorsky group.

Kulik .I understand in Spain: you fight, everything is in order, but here - the devil will understand him. When I came from Spain, I was offered to go to Uborevich's deputy. I said: "I'd better go to command a company, but I won't go to Uborevich as a deputy." I came to you then, Comrade Voroshilov, and almost cried. Then Feldman was taken instead of me. The only place I wanted to go was to Comrade Belov. When they sent me to Feldman, I thought: do they really not trust me politically? I was at your dinner, Comrade Voroshilov. You told me that there is a guard duty. What is he, a combatant better than me? I don’t think so. What's the matter here? They probably did not allow me to enter the Moscow district, because they knew that I would hang them. And when I said at your dinner that the first bastard was Gamarnik, you told me: "You are wrong, Yakir is a bastard." No, he, poor thing, is worried. What Bolshevik commander can hate a Bolshevik? Don't we have one idea? He hated me and considered me your agent, Kliment Efremovich. It would seem that the body has tightened, everything is in order; and here they beat, but for what they beat - I do not know.

Voroshilov . Lunch break until 6 o'clock. At the evening session, all debates are to be finished and to disperse tomorrow. (The meeting is closed.)

[1] Own title of the document. The transcript has a title page compiled in the Archives of the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU: “Meeting of the Military Council with commanders and political workers. June 1-4, 1937 Transcript - uncorrected. The presiding officer is Voroshilov. Continuation of the discussion of Voroshilov's report: Alksnis (sheets 1-12), Sedyakin - (sheets 13-24), Sivkov - (sheets 25-32), Uritsky - (sheets 33-44), Khripin - (sheets 45- 53), Troyanker - (fol. 54-62), Fedko - (fol. 63-81), Bushenko [Dushenov] - (fol. 82-91), Khrulev - (fol. 92-117), Shaposhnikov - (fol. . 118-124), Kulik - (fol. 125-139) ... The transcript was not published. Note: The corrected transcript is in the documents received from the Office of the Ministry of War, case No. 6. "

[2] So in the transcript. In fact, V.S. Kokhansky had the military rank of "brigade commander".

[3] So in the text. That's right - "which you need, if not kick out."

[4]The plane R-Zet (PZ) was created on the initiative of the director of plant number 1 AM. Belenkovich, chief engineer E.P. Shekunov, designers D.S. Markova, A.A. Skarbov and others. The aircraft was adopted in 1935-1937. was built serially. There were also three PZ modifications in single copies: PZ attack aircraft (had four ShKAS machine guns under the lower wing); PZ record (lightweight aircraft without weapons and with improved aerodynamics); PZ with cargo cassettes - plywood streamlined containers on the lower wing at the sides of the fuselage. In terms of its flight technical data, the PZ aircraft was not far from the P-5 reconnaissance aircraft, but in terms of piloting technique it was much more complicated than it and demanded increased attention of the pilot. At the beginning of 1937, the PZ was already considered obsolete, and by the spring of 1937 its serial construction was discontinued. The PZ was the last serial biplane reconnaissance aircraft in the USSR. In the future, reconnaissance aircraft and light bombers were built according to a monoplane scheme (Shavrov VB History of aircraft designs in the USSR until 1938, M., 2002, p. 512).

[5] So in the transcript. In May - December 1920, the 25th str. Division was part of the 12th Army of the Southwestern Front.

[6] So in the transcript.

[7] Shepetivka maneuvers took place in the Kiev military district from 12 to 15 September 1936 under the leadership of the commander of the KVO troops, 1st rank army commander I.E. Yakira. During the maneuvers, questions related to the actions of the cavalry corps during the development of the breakthrough were worked out (See: RGVA. F. 25880. Op. 4. D. 80).

[8] In the transcript: "about Kurov".

[9] Kingston is a valve in the underwater part of a ship (vessel) that closes the system used to receive seawater or pump liquid overboard. On submarines, it is a locking device for the immersion and ascent system for receiving (pumping out) water into the tanks of the main and auxiliary ballast. The opening (closing) of the Kingston is carried out remotely using a hydraulic, pneumatic or manual drive (Naval Dictionary. M., 1989, p. 182; Military encyclopedic dictionary: 2 vol. M .: BRE, 2001. T. 1. S . 701).

[10] Leader (English leader - leading) - a combat surface ship of the destroyer subclass, but with a larger displacement, with a higher speed - up to 43 knots (80 km / h) and reinforced artillery and torpedo armament. Appeared at the end of the First World War in Great Britain; were also used during the Second World War; by the early 1970s. excluded from all fleets. The leaders were intended to withdraw (lead) the destroyers into a group torpedo attack and their artillery cover. In the Soviet Navy, the leaders were the BF, Black Sea Fleet, Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet. (Military encyclopedic dictionary: In 2 volumes. Moscow: BRE, 2001. V. 1.P. 837; Dotsenko V.D. History of naval art: In 2 volumes. M., 2005. V. 1. Armaments and theory, p. 216).

[11] So in the transcript. Should be - "accepted".

[12] So in the transcript. That's right - "I thought."

[13] So in the text. Apparently, it means the beginning of the 1920s.

[14] So in the text. Should be - "air combat".

[15] So in the text. It must be "failure".

[16] Here and below, the surname of the designer L.V. Kurchevsky ("Urchevsky").

[17] So in the transcript.

[18] Here and below in the transcript the surname of the division commander I.D. Florovsky - "Frolovsky".

[19] Here and below, the surname of the divintendant G.A. is incorrectly indicated in the transcript. Dzyzy - "Dziza".

[20] So in the transcript. It must have been "often absent from the army."

[21] Hereinafter, the surname of K.A. is incorrectly indicated in the transcript. Meretskova ("Meretsky").

[22] So in the transcript.

[23] So in the text. It must have been "absent from the army."

[24] Here and so on in the text. That's right - the "command staff".

[25] Here and below, the surname of the flagship of the 1st rank K.I. Dushenova - "Bushenko".

[26] Blomberg (Blomberg) Werner von (1878-1946) - German Field Marshal (1936). Graduated from the military school in Gross-Lichterfeld, the Military Academy (1907). Member of the First World War. After the war, he held various command and staff positions in the Reichswehr. Since 1933 - Minister of the Reichswehr. Since 1935 - Reich Minister of War and Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht. In 1938 he was dismissed.

[27] Probably, we are talking about submarines of type H, which from October 1937 began to be designated as type C. Submarines of the IX series were equipped with M-V diesel engines of the German company "MAN" with a mechanical pressurization system and batteries of the 386MAK-760 type German firm "AFA" (Morozov ME, Kulagin KL. Soviet submarine fleet 1922-1945: On submarines and submariners. M .: ACT; ACT MOSCOW; Transitkniga, 2006. S. 140-142).

[28] So in the source. That's right - "loess-like".

[29] So in the text. That's right - "500 million".

[30] So in the text. That's right - "in the districts."

[31] This refers to the Artillery Directorate of the Red Army.

[32] Here and below in the transcript the surname of the 2nd rank army commissar G.I. Veklichev ("Vekhlichev").

[33] So in the transcript.

[34] So in the transcript.