Recording of the conversation with I.V. Stalin with the leaders of the SED W. Pieck, W. Ulbricht and O. Grotewohl. April 7, 1952
Archive: RGASPI. F. 558. Op. 11. D. 303. L. 179-187
Present: comrades Molotov, Malenkov, Bulganin, Semenov (SKK)
Comrade Stalin says that in a previous conversation, V. Pick raised the question of the prospects for the development of Germany, in connection with Soviet proposals for a peace treaty and the policies of the Americans and British in Germany. Comrade Stalin believes that no matter what proposals we make on the German question, the Western powers will not agree with them and still will not leave West Germany. To think that a compromise will be reached or that the Americans will accept the draft peace treaty would be a mistake. The Americans need an army in West Germany to control Western Europe. They say they have an army there against us. In fact, the purpose of their army is to hold Europe. The Americans will involve West Germany in the Atlantic Pact. They will create West German troops. Adenauer is in the pocket of the Americans. All former fascists and generals are the same. In fact, an independent state is being formed in West Germany. And you must organize your own state. The demarcation line between West and East Germany must be considered as a border - and not as a simple border, but as a dangerous border. We need to strengthen security at this border. The Germans will be on the first line of its protection, and we will put Russian troops on the second line of protection. Agents of Western powers roam too freely around the German Democratic Republic. They may take extreme measures and kill you or Comrade Chuikov. This must be taken into account. Therefore, it is necessary to have strong border security.
Then, continues Comrade. Stalin , - we want to restore the military commandant's offices. This is also a good thing against possible sabotage. Also, our troops must have adequate security. And you need this, you yourself will be stronger. Comrade Stalin asks if these proposals are suitable?
Comrade Peak says that this is very important.
Comrade Ulbricht agrees. He asks whether commandant's offices will be restored everywhere?
Comrade Stalin replies that he does not know this. Comrade Chuikov wants to restore the commandant’s office and allocates 3-4 thousand military personnel for this.
Comrade Peak says that this is very important and necessary.
Comrade Stalin says that we clarified the issue of arming the German police and came to the conclusion that the weapons should be Russian. Now the German police have old German weapons, for which there are no German cartridges. We need to either restore the production of ammunition, or we will sell you our weapons.
Comrade Ulbricht says that he agrees with this. But will all the weapons be sold? Starting with a revolver or starting with a machine gun?
Comrade Stalin says that all weapons. If your police are not armed, then what kind of police are they? You have the right to have armed police. Comrade Chuikov says that in addition to the regular police in the GDR there is a barracks police, i.e. troops. He asked for tanks and artillery for her. We agree. Think about it.
Comrade Stalin says that he has two questions. Last time here it turned out that in the GDR the ratio of wages of workers and engineering and technical personnel is 1: 1.7. This is completely wrong. This will ruin your entire industry. Perhaps you relied on the fact that Marx and Engels said during the Commune that an engineer should not receive more than a skilled worker. Maybe it was right then, but now it is absolutely wrong. An engineer is engaged in intellectual work. He must have an apartment, furnishings; he should not run for a piece of bread. The environment of his life should be such that a person working with intellectual work needs it. He needs to have a library, comfort, so that he can calmly read a book or write something. If you don’t do this, not only will your old engineers leave, but also your young ones will run away. In our country, an engineer earns two to three times more than a worker, and in some places even four times. Academicians receive 12 thousand rubles monthly. Without this it is impossible to work and improve. Therefore, old views on this matter must be discarded. Technology has become so complex compared to the times of the Commune that an engineer, and even a skilled worker, must study a lot in order to master this technology. An engineer must be able to constantly improve, read books, write - without this there is no engineer. The same applies to the army. Marx and Engels believed that a militia army was needed. And in the first years, we also considered only a militia army necessary. Life has shown that this is wrong. Now, in order to defend the country, we need a modern army with many specialists. A militia army is only good if the war is decided by a rifle. Now this old militia army must be discarded. Now it is not a manufacturing army that operates, but a machine army. Therefore, there must be people in the army who know cars.
Comrade Stalin says that he also heard that in the GDR skilled workers receive little more than unskilled workers.
Comrade Ulbricht says that they get more, but the difference is not enough. Therefore, it is intended to introduce tariff categories.
Comrade Stalin says that we had the same experience in the first years of Soviet power. Communes were created in factories, which included engineers and unskilled workers, who contributed their earnings into a common pot and divided everything equally. It was stupidity. Skilled workers had no incentive to improve their skills and unskilled workers also had no incentive to rise to the level of skilled workers. Both of them lost. Then some people said that this approach to business was proletarian, socialist. But there is nothing proletarian or socialist in this. This is peasant egalitarianism. Any proletarian will tell you that if he receives more salary, he will qualify, but otherwise he will not. A skilled worker should earn much more than an ordinary worker, and an engineer much more than a skilled worker. Whatever the cost, it needs to be done. We've been doing things this way for 25 years now, and that's the only reason things are going well. There is a prospect for skilled workers, many of whom have passed the engineer exam and become good specialists. Peasant egalitarianism must be buried. Comrade Stalin asks if the German leaders agree with this and adds that this is a real Marxist approach.
Comrade Pik says that this is correct.
Comrade Stalin says that he has a second question. He, Stalin, understood that in the GDR there are no collective farms at all and that machine-rolling stations serve only private peasant farms.
Comrade Ulbricht confirms this and adds that we even prohibited the organization of collective farms where the peasants wanted it, so as not to interfere with the movement for German unity.
Comrade Stalin says that you are complaining about the kulaks. But what kind of tactic is this - complaining? The kulak must be surrounded and collective farms created around him. In our country, the organization of collective farms took place simultaneously with dispossession. You won't need this path. Let the fist sit there, don’t touch it. But besides the kulak, in your village there are poor people who live near the kulak. She needs to be involved in a production cooperative. How many poor farms will be included in the production cooperative - 5-10-15 - it does not matter. It is important that they get organized. Now the poor do not have cars, do not have enough seeds, and do not have the necessary knowledge and experience in farming. That's why she's doing poorly with her harvest. In this situation, the poor will go bankrupt and become unemployed. If you organize small collective farms and help them organize their economy, then the peasants will think about what is better - to go to a collective farm or live alone. There is good experience in Hungary, where good collective farms are organized, the kulaks are not touched, the collective farms were given cars; They are trying to raise the collective farm harvest. One cannot think that Hungarians are more capable people than Germans. You must do the same. It is necessary to provide production cooperatives with benefits, as we once had. It’s cheaper to give cars, help with seeds and advice. If you need instructors to organize collective farms, we will give them to you. Of course, if a bloc of parties objects to this, then that’s a different matter. But the bloc cannot object if the peasants want to organize production cooperation and if you help the peasants in this. What's wrong with that? You will see for yourself that the peasants will go to visit these collective farms and see how life turns out in a new way. I noticed, says Comrade Stalin, that you do not value the peasants in your policy. This is an old Social Democratic prejudice against the peasantry. If this is true, then this situation must end. Comrade Stalin asks the German comrades whether they need peasants? Do they give them food? But if peasants are needed, then it is necessary to have a basis for an alliance with the peasantry.
Comrade Peak says that when land reform was carried out in the GDR, the enemies campaigned that we wanted to create collective farms. The peasants had a strong prejudice against collective farms, so we were afraid to raise the question of collective farms. We now have in the countryside an association of peasant mutual aid and trade cooperation. This contains the principle of cooperation. It may now be appropriate to pose this question on a broader basis.
Comrade Stalin says that it is necessary to create production cooperatives in the villages and call them that. This will only be a plus. You will have a strong support among the peasants. Hungary is doing very well with this. And you could have done this a long time ago. One must not remain silent against any agitation, but counter-agitate. You can say that the poor peasantry wants to join production cooperatives and that the government is helping them to do so.
Comrade Pik says that this is good.
Comrade Stalin notes that cooperatives should be given benefits - selling cars cheaper, helping with seeds for the first two years, and then they will get stronger. So, is this possible?
Comrade Ulbricht says it is possible. This will make things easier for us in the village.
Comrade Stalin says, “of course, you will have your own base in the village.” Don’t force anyone there - if they want, that’s fine, if they don’t want to, don’t. The peasants themselves will join production cooperatives. It would be possible to send good people from the urban unemployed to organize such cooperatives in the countryside. Comrade Stalin says that in the Soviet Union we got rid of unemployment for two reasons - because we are expanding production and because the peasants settled on the land. Previously, every year 23-25 million hungry peasants from the countryside came to Russian cities and drove down the price of labor. Now this is no longer the case, since the peasants are interested in working in the countryside. Now there are no unemployed in the USSR and the problem is that there are not enough workers. We mobilize young peasants and send them to industry. So we beat unemployment at both ends. There is no need to skimp on helping collective farms. It will pay off later. Then you will have an alliance of workers and peasants. And without peasants, it is difficult for workers alone to survive. You need help from the peasants.
Comrade Ulbricht says that this has its consequences. Until now, we have said in the GDR that we stand for a democratic Germany and have not carried out a number of measures that need to be taken in the development towards socialism: We have also never said that we are moving towards socialism.
Comrade Stalin says that this was correct.
Comrade Ulbricht asks whether, after the deep split in Germany, we must continue such previous tactics?
Comrade Stalin says that there is no need to shout about socialism even now. But production cooperatives are pieces of socialism. People's enterprises are the same as socialism.
Comrade Ulbricht says that until now we have not talked about this and have not indicated that people's enterprises are socialist. We slightly disguised the social relations that arose in the GDR.
Comrade Stalin says that this mask helped you not to intimidate the middle strata of West Germany. But if it didn’t exist, then maybe you would attract the lower strata more strongly to you. The workers will be happy to know that you are nationalizing industry. Otherwise they will say that you have the same government as the one in Bonn. We can say that in the GDR the industry is popular, nationalized, but in West Germany there are individual capitalists - millionaires who own industry. Here we need to maneuver - on the one hand, we should not scare off the middle strata, but we should not offend the workers of the West either. We sell you our joint stock companies. It will be important for workers in Germany to know that nationalized industry is thus being increased. The workers will be very happy about this. Of course, we need to maneuver and disguise ourselves in relation to the middle layers. If you say that you have state industry, it means that the enterprises are not in the hands of robber capitalists, but in the hands of the entire people. But you yourself should know that this is socialist production. Production cooperatives in the countryside are also pieces of socialism. There is no need to shout about this. When things are going well in the production cooperatives, all the peasants will see the benefits and strength of the cooperatives, then after that the peasants will turn to the workers. But for now there is no need to shout about it, because... You don’t have collective farms in your pocket yet. In my opinion, you should start this business. Although two states are being created in Germany, there is no point in shouting about socialism yet. These farms should not be called collective farms yet, but rather production cooperatives.
Comrade Peak says that the issue of industrial cooperation must be seriously discussed and clarity on this issue must be brought to the party.
Comrade Stalin says, first build several collective farms, and then discuss it in the party. You don't have any material to discuss right now. Laughing, Comrade Stalin notes that first there was action, and then the word.
Comrade Ulbricht asks what experience have people's democracies had? Wouldn't it be more advisable to start building production cooperatives after the harvest?
Comrade Stalin says that peasants usually build houses in winter. After the harvest, you can talk to the peasants about creating production cooperatives.
Comrade Peak says that the workers ask us, what is the social system in the GDR? What is socialism? So far we have avoided answering this question, but the workers remained dissatisfied.
Comrade Stalin says that we must tell our workers that we have entered socialism. This is still incomplete socialism, because... You have many private capitalists. But this is the beginning of socialism, a piece of socialism, the road to socialism. You must show that you are closer to the workers than the Adenauer government.
Comrade Stalin asks which body is superior to you - the Secretariat or the Politburo?
Comrade Pik replies that there were ambiguities on this issue in the SED, although according to the SED charter, the Politburo is superior to the Secretariat. Comrade talked to us here. Pegov from the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) and he well explained the methods of work and brought clarity. In addition, we talked here with Kuznetsov, Romanov and Mikhailov on issues of pre-conscription military training.
Comrade Stalin says that you may need instructors for the construction of collective farms. It would be possible to call instructors from Hungary or Poland.
Comrade Malenkov notes that they will be less authoritative for the German peasants than the Soviet people.
Comrade Stalin says that we will provide 1-2 instructors. Just don’t carry out dispossession at the same time as collectivization. You can leave your fists alone for now.
Comrade Ulbricht says that we do not need to touch them, because... Once production cooperatives are organized, some of the kulaks will immediately defect to the West.
Comrade Stalin says, what's wrong with that? You will take their land. In Poland, some of the kulaks sold their land and are now engaged in the carriage trade. Comrade Stalin asks if there are state farms in the GDR?
Comrade Ulbricht answers in the affirmative and adds that state farms account for about 5 percent of the entire sown area of the GDR.
Comrade Stalin asks, do they work well?
Comrade Ulbricht says that it is not very good.
Comrade Semyonov gives information that the yield of people's estates in the GDR is significantly higher than the yield of peasant fields. But people's estates, as a rule, are unprofitable and receive subsidies from the state.
Comrade Stalin says that some people's estates can be transferred to peasants if they do not work well. We, in the Soviet Union, initially had difficulties establishing the work of state farms. Then we transferred part of the state farms to the peasants and the farm became profitable. To provide for the workers of state farms, we began to allocate plots of land to them and they began to work better and settled firmly on the land.
Comrade Stalin asks whether the German comrades received a rolling mill?
Comrade Grotewohl replies that the money for the purchase of the mill has been transferred, but they cannot yet say definitely about the purchase of the mill.
Comrade Stalin asks if they hope to get the camp?
Comrade Grotewohl answers in the affirmative and says that they have given appropriate instructions.
Comrade Stalin notes that in the Soviet Union they make such mills and, in general, all the necessary equipment, however, the factories are overloaded with orders.
Comrade Stalin asks whether iron ore has been found in new places in the GDR?
Comrade Ulbricht replies that the GDR has low-grade ore with about 20% iron content.
Comrade Stalin says that it must be mixed with good ore. Before the war, the Germans did not refuse such ore, which had 5%.
Comrade Ulbricht says that special low mines for low-grade ore have been built in the GDR.
Comrade Stalin says that such ore must be mixed with good ore. The Poles take Krivoy Rog ore from us and mix it 50% with their low-grade ore. The Germans took ore from us even under Hitler. We recently discovered good ore in Siberia containing 60% iron. But this field is located very far from the railway.
Comrade Ulbricht says that they have one more request. We have already communicated that we want to create a CNG program. We will try to speed up the development of this program and publish it before the ban on CNG. We ask that Comrade Stalin and the Politburo of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks look at our project and help us develop the program.
Comrade Stalin agrees.
Comrade Grotewohl says that in assessing the situation in West Germany and US policy, they completely agree with the opinion of Comrade. Stalin. He, Grotewohl, would like to ask whether Comrade. Stalin that at the moment it is necessary to make changes to our argumentation on issues of German unity and to the official point of view of the GDR government on the issue of restoring German unity.
Comrade Stalin answers negatively. We must continue to promote German unity all the time. This is of great importance for the education of the people in West Germany. Now this weapon is in your hands, you must hold it in your hands at all times. We will also continue to make proposals on issues of German unity in order to expose the Americans.
Comrade Grotewohl asks Comrade Stalin for an additional sale to the GDR of 8,000 tons of long-fiber cotton.
Comrade Stalin agrees and offers to talk about this with Comrade. Malenkov.
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